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3,876 | As quoted from <nate.1504.735838830@psygate.psych.indiana.edu> by nate@psygate.psych.indiana.edu (Nathan Engle):
What laws did they circumvent? Being "frightening" isn't a crime. Some people
are afraid of young Black males. That doesn't make the mere status of being a
young Black male a crime.
The BATF itself admitted leading off by throwing handgrenades. There is no
evidence that they properly identified themselves as law enforcement
personnel. Under those circumstances, other persons have been found to be
acting within their legal rights to exercise self defense against unidentified
armed intruders.
The charges are irrlevant anyway, since the BATF has absolutely no jurisdiction
in such matters anyway. Of course that hasn't stopped them from making other
such spurious charges, such as the existence of mythical "meth labs". Of
course they whole "cult" thing indicates the level of contempt that they have
for the 1st amendment.
That armed resistance, at least initially, may well have been LEGAL.
| 5 |
3,903 | For those who didn't figure it out, the below message was a reply to another
in sci.crypt, for which the poster put t.p.g. in the Followup-To line. I
didn't notice that. Apologies to those who were confused.
The substance makes little sense unless one reads the prior messages.
However, I don't wish to enter into this discussion here, as it will be yet
another rehearsal of a long-tired set of arguments. Suffice it to say that I
disagree both with the interpretation of "well-regulated" in the Second
Amendment offered by gun lovers, and what I think to be their distortion of
the same phrase in the associated Federalist papers. My Webster and my
reading of the language convinces me that the word meant both under control,
and disciplined, and not 'of good marksmanship'. I think the latter a
special interest pleading. No one has yet shown a contemporateous reference
in which "well regulated" unambiguously meant 'of good marksmanship', and
not under control/disciplined, etc.
Thus I continue to believe the Second Amendment is a militia clause and not
an 'arming everyone' clause. Others are welcome to disagree (as I know many
do) and little would be served by rehashing this topic in this particular
forum.
To avoid flames, or unproductive rehashings, I note that I've come in here
to post this one message, just to clarify the one below. I'm now outta here
again though I'm available via e-mail.
David
| 5 |
5,978 |
Ok, you don't like what I have to say. Would you care to
demonstrate how the above list, or any expanded version of it you
chose to post, demonstrates fairness in the actions of the UN wrt
Israel?
You make the odd assumption that I read Israeli papers, not
European ones. My main source of news is the Economist, a London
based magazine.
Also, I do on rare occaisons, read Arab papers, but its hard
to find English language papers from Arab countries here.
Have I ever claimed to be objective? I pointed out, with a 27
item list, that Israel is condemned for actions that other nations are
not condemned for. You go off and attack me for reading only Israeli
newspapers.
If you'd like to debate this, please do. If you'd like to
make ad hominum attacks, feel free to do that too. But try not to
mask one as another.
Adam
Adam Shostack adam@das.harvard.edu | 5 |
2,442 |
Not due to race. Due to membership in an organization which
publically proclaimed it would destroy the state which expelled them
-- and furthermore kill a large segment of the citizens of that state,
based on race.
| 5 |
1,488 |
(sic) Oh, you're really bright. As if nobody would have understood it was a
typo.
Several parents with children who either had at one time or currently were
inside the compound made the aforementioned charges. One parent actually
spoke about said charges (in reference to his 13-year old daughter) WITH
Koresh on the phone.
You missed my point entirely.
Since you're unable to formulate a cogent response, you make a lame joke.
Anti-social. Normally meaning a response against societal norms. Stealing
is sociopathic behavior. It's not an oxymoron to have a GROUP of
SOCIOPATHS. I guess you're NOT a psychologist. Oh well...
Maybe YOU should get an education, my man.
Why won't some assholes use a sig so I can send them mail instead of
wasting bandwidth?
| 5 |
590 |
I am not a paranoid, nor a government toady, nor even am I the guy you were
talking to originally, but I think you are simply NOT PAYING ATTENTION.
A bunch of people living off by themselves with a lot of guns nearby is not
that wierd in Texas. My own family, very quiet taxpayers with extremely con-
ventional views, has something like 10 rifles and shotguns in a two-person
home. Some of them were mine, but I don't live there anymore. I now have
my own shotgun in my apartment.
Texas Child Protective Services (which loves to find child abuse) found no,
I repeat NO, evidence of abuse when they first looked at the BD, and is saying
that they see none in any of the kids who were released. There is no evidence
that Koresh was banging anyone but his wives.
It is not against the law to stockpile (most) weapons or campbell's soup.
Nor is there any hard evidence in the form of actual hardware (as I write this)
to prove the BD really had any *proscribed* weapons.
I feel they were all loonies, but there is no indication that they ever
bothered anyone. They were gone after in the wrong ways for the wrong reasons,
and the BATF and FBI who are so busy trumpeting this child abuse angle hasn't
got a leg to stand on or any right to be involved in such abuse cases anyway.
If there was any real danger of the BD's going out on a rampage, then that
is up to the officers of the state of Texas, who are probably getting a per-
verse bit of pleasure at getting to torque the Feds for fucking up something
in their state.
semper fi, | 5 |
1,497 |
This can be turned around. The Austrians who should feel guilty about
their actions during WWII, but don't, justify their anti-semetism by making
every Israeli action into an atrocity. The Austrians, Germans and other
Europeans have extensive trading relations with the Arab block; being
pro-Arab is good for business. I don't think that ethics has a thing to
do about it. | 5 |
1,738 | 5 | |
744 |
Another name for this region is Cis-Jordan. | 5 |
6,050 |
None of you guys noticed my "Gross Mistake" 'cause you
don't have a clue. I noticed the misspeaking myself and
corrected it. I doubt you would have ever noticed.
Actually I've read books and taken courses on the
subject. Ah yes and like you lived in the greater Deutschland.
You guys are funny. It's funny to see people lose control and
start the name calling when they realize they have no point.
Could have fooled me.
I understand how individual liberties (freedom of
speach, religion etc.) could be a thing you "never heard
about". Actually, Civil Libertarians believe in the fundamental
freedoms that belong to human beings. They would support the
Jews against the Nazis or anyone else who tries to oppress them
and they would support the Arabs against the Israelis and any
other such oppressive regimes (Iraq etc.)
Well actually now that you mentioned here are a few things I
appreciate:
1. Politeness
2. Stimulating conversation
3. A red rose
4. New York in june and a good Gerschwinn tune
5. A chocalate Sundae
6. Really angry out of controll funny people | 5 |
5,914 | NO SURRENDER!
Delivered by Lenda Jackson at the RKBA Rally in Denver, April 18, 1993
It is a fact of modern life that urban residents, particularly women, feel
threatened. A certain number of them actually are threatened. There are
immediate threats, the things that women will tell you they're afraid
of. The noise downstairs at night. The lonely walk to the car. The
stranger at the door. The abusive husband, finally kicked out of the
house as he threatens to hurt her and their children. The burglar... The
mugger...the rapist.
And what are we told is the solution? Move. Get a dog. Keep the door
locked. Call the police. as a next-to-last resort, learn martial arts. and
always, there's the implied question "what's a pretty little thing like
you doing without a husband around to protect you?
But what if you don't like dogs? Like living alone? Don't have 10
years to devote learning judo?
What if, after examining the facts, a woman learns that "rape victims
using armed resistance were less likely to have the rape completed -
and were less likely to be injured(Kleck,124) than those using any
other form of resistance (Kleck,126) (also true for
robbery/assault)(Kleck,123)
What if, to our horror and despair, we find that citizens cannot depend
on the police for effective protection - they usually respond after a
crime has been committed. In truth, the Supreme Court has held that
the police are not responsible for protecting any individual, only the
whole community.
As a society, are we going to ask women, once again, to sacrifice
themselves? Are we going to continue to deny women the ability to
help themselves?
Here's a thought. Neil Smith, in his book The Probability Broach, says
"no 220 pound thug can threaten the well being or dignity of a 110-
pound woman who has two pounds of iron to even things out." But if
a woman decides to protect herself, with the easiest, most efficient
means possible, people - especially other women - are horrified.
"Eughh, how could you? I'd be terrified!" they ask. How could you
hurt someone? They'll repeat the lie: it'll just get taken away from
you. In truth, 1% of "defensive gun uses" result in the offender taking
the gun away from the victim.(122,Kleck)
Well, despite the lies, and the social pressure, some of us have already
made that hard choice. We've decided that we are not going to be
victimized by the muggers, burglars or rapists. We're buying more
guns than every before. We're learning how to use them - and teaching
others, women and men, how to use them. Most importantly, we are
preparing ourselves mentally to use our firearms for our own defense.
We're taking our own security, literally, into our own hands. We're
going to stop begging and pleading and marching and WHAT WE
INTEND IS TO REALLY TAKE BACK THE NIGHT.
But there's another threat, more insatiable than any mugger, more
secretive than any burglar, more soul-destroying than any rapist.
That menace is government, and it threatens us all. We know that
governments, throughout time, have suppressed rights and oppressed
people. It's the way they survive.
In our names and with our money, it interferes with innocent people
both at home and abroad. It lies to us, cheats us, steals from us and
threatens us with violence. No one knows exactly what it'll do next -
what freedom we will lose because some government goon decides
"it's for your own safety" or "we know best". Any person who acted
like government does would be psychoanalyzed within an inch of his
life and locked up as a habitual offender.
But this monster called government persists, and grows. And we, who
should be its masters, have become its unwilling slaves. Do you doubt
me? Then why did you file your income tax?
Like any reasonable person, I believe that being afraid of something
that can hurt you is smart, and that paranoia isn't crazy if someone's
really after you. And make no mistake, they're after you and they're
after me. Their names are familiar: Brady and Reynolds, Groff,
Metzenbahm, Moynihan, and Clinton. If we're lucky, they'll settle for
our assault rifles, our shotguns, our handguns and our ammunition.
As citizens, we have only two choices. They are the same two choices
given to women: to surrender or to fight.
Surrender leads to the gulag, to the genocide of Pol Pot, to the
disappearances, to Dachau. I do not intend to surrender.
A battle can be philosophical or political: in the main, the people keep
the government honest by threatening to vote it out of office. But if
they have to, they will keep in mind the words of Thomas Jefferson:
"the tree of liberty must be well watered with the blood of patriots."
As a patriot, I will point out the error in the government's ways. I will
do my best to vote the villains out of office. I will protest, and write,
and speak, and teach our children justice, honor and truth. And always
remember that Rebellion can lead to Bunker Hill and Saratoga......or it
can lead to Tiananmen Square.
When the time comes to stand up, if I have to give my life to keep
them from going too far, if there is a Tiananmen Square in our future,
I intend to be there. And no matter what lies they tell and no matter
what laws they pass, I intend to meet them with something more
substantial in my hand than a brick. | 5 |
2,311 | 5 | |
5,788 |
What is this "Gaza"? Are you purposely separating it from the "West Bank"?
If so, why separate the people and territories? If not, why are you just
addressing "Gaza" here?
By all means, continue to list the "etc." The reason I particularly
bring this up here is that there are **many** from middle eastern
and west asian countries. That fact in itself **adds** an important
element to any consideration of "resolution" of the Arab-Israel
conflict.
You explained what "sea" meant with regard to the Israelis/jews,
please do so in this case.
"Just"? You better not ask for that because that would mean North
American tribes would be returned their lands, the pre-Islamic tribes
would take back their lands from the Islamic invaders, the Saxons get
to kick the Normans out of the UK, the central and south american
tribes get to kick the spanish descendents out of thier lands.....
And, once we have returned the land to those who last possessed it,
we have to find out from whom **they** stole it. At some point, *every*
culture stole the land they are on from previous occupants.
But wait! Now you refer to "Palestinians", so what happened to "Gaza"?
As we both know, most people would choose the third alternative. And,
since you have done so in the past, perhaps you would initiate things by
presenting your vision of "resolution". In doing so, however, the worries
(not paranioas, *worries*) and resonable expectations **of both**
parties should be considered.
| 5 |
2,829 |
I've yet to meet a group of Baptists who were stockpiling Cambell's soup
and M-16's/AR-15's and banging/marrying thirteen yuear olds. You're a sorry
son of a bitch if you can't draw a distinction between these two things.
People like you cheapen our constitution by using it to defend sociopaths
who aren't deserved of it. Get a life and chill on the paranoia. | 5 |
4,955 |
Why? He, Reno, and the FBI got what they wanted -- a reminder of
who is the boss in America -- the thugs who work for the government. | 5 |
2,996 |
Please, read my post carefully, I am saying that lift the arms emargo
and let the MUSLIMS defend themselves. The point is these Europians
"civilized countries" neither want to get intervene militarily themselves
and nor they like to see the muslims of the world to help the oppressed.
(Remember what happened almost one year ago when the so called UN discovered
some riffles in an Iranian jet in Bosnia!). The west is not indifferent
in this matter they are siding with Serbs by keeping this embargo on only
muslim side (okay on-paper on both sides).
-Khalid
| 5 |
7,002 | From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Zionists reject non-Jews. News
Ethiopian Jews and not-quite Jews
The Israeli press has published items about Ethiopian
Jews waiting in camps in Addis Ababa for immigration to
Israel, who are dying of starvation. The following are
excerpts from an interview with the former general
director of the JDC project for development and welfare
of Ethiopian Jews, Kobi Friedman (Hadashot, 21 April
1993), who has stated that "there are people dying in
Addis Ababa, but they are converts to Christianity":
"Hadashor published the item about the dying Jews after
viewing a video tape filmed last week in Adis Ababa.
How do you know that they are actually converts to
Chritianity ?
"If there are Jews on the tape, then I don't know what to
say. I am speaking from experience when I say that those
who remained in Ethiopia are Christians. I know that
there have previously been things published in the press
by interesting parties, and there is no connection
between them and reality."
"What interested parties ?"
"Ethiopian immigrants who want their Christian relatives
to come here."
"What to you recommend that Ethiopian children in Israel
do, when their parents and the rest of their relatives
remain in Ethiopia ?"
"I ask if it is the job of the State of Israel to bring in the
40 relatives who stayed in Ethiopia. Well, my answer is
that it is not. It would be a better solution, economically
as well, for that young man to buy a one-way ticket to
Ethiopia and reunite with his family there." | 5 |
3,278 |
Why not try to eliminate discrimination from existing laws instead of
trying to add discrimination that favors your group. | 5 |
5,116 |
Or, did anyone notice that when Clinton referred to the Davidians as
'religious fanatics' that a round of spontaneous applause burst forth from
the reporters ?
To me this was not only in poor taste, but it showed the media's bias and
hostility to anyone not of the politically correct stripe. No wonder they
have been cheerleading for the kgBATF and the FBI during this whole affair.
Rod
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It [collectivism vs individualism] is an ancient conflict. Men have come
close to the truth, but it was destroyed each time and one civilization fell
after another. Civilization is the progress toward a society of privacy. The
savage's whole existence is public, ruled by the laws of his tribe.
Civilization is the process of setting man free from men."
-- Ayn Rand : 'Roark's speech from the _Fountainhead_'
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't speak for my company. We hire the 'Politically Correct' to do that. | 5 |
2,194 |
Perhaps I failed to make myself clear: Minorities in the U.S.
*correlate* with poverty. This isn't good and we should address it,
but we shouldnt' ignore that minorities and poverty *do* tend to go
together.
*Does* Vancouver have a consistantly poor population drawn along
racial lines? If it doesn't, then assumptions of being able to compare
minority vs. majority in both cities is questionable at best.
If the *rate* of increase over a period of several years remains
unchanged, or increases, I think it's not a far jump to say that the laws
are not effective. No, you can't sit down and say that things wouldn't
have been worse. I don't have a crystal ball and neither do you. However,
that road leads us to a place where it is impossible to critique *any*
action. If it gets down to be, "It might have been worse without them,"
then there *is* no valid objection, which I'm sure would amuse certain
people to no end.
So we've got a situation where we have several options:
1) The crime rate decreased: Obviously gun control worked.
2) The crime rate remained the same: It would have been worse
without gun control.
3) The crime rate increased: Perhaps the laws prevented an
even bigger increase.
Cute testing ground we've got. All responses support the proposition
that gun control works.
The question is this: Did Washington D.C. experiance an increase
in its violent and/or gun crime rate which was greater than the pattern
indicated prior to the implemented gun control laws. If it did, then
the suggestion that the problem the gun control laws were designed to
"control" did not exist in their entirety prior to the gun control laws.
| 5 |
3,502 |
Ah, those poor genocide apologists. Such quaintly charming habits of the
Armenian barbarism and fascism. No swinging of lies will be enough to cover
up the crimes of the x-Soviet Armenian Government. Not a chance. Now let
the Kurdish scholars speak for themselves.
Source: Hassan Arfa, "The Kurds," (London, 1968), pp. 25-26.
"When the Russian armies invaded Turkey after the Sarikamish disaster
of 1914, their columns were preceded by battalions of irregular
Armenian volunteers, both from the Caucasus and from Turkey. One of
these was commanded by a certain Andranik, a blood-thirsty adventurer.
These Armenian volunteers committed all kinds of excesses, more
than six hundred thousand Kurds being killed between 1915 and 1916 in
the eastern vilayets of Turkey."
Sources: (The Ottoman State, the Ministry of War), "Islam Ahalinin
Ducar Olduklari Mezalim Hakkinda Vesaike Mustenid Malumat," (Istanbul, 1918).
The French version: "Documents Relatifs aux Atrocites Commises par les Armeniens
sur la Population Musulmane," (Istanbul, 1919). In the Latin script: H. K.
Turkozu, ed., "Osmanli ve Sovyet Belgeleriyle Ermeni Mezalimi," (Ankara,
1982). In addition: Z. Basar, ed., "Ermenilerden Gorduklerimiz," (Ankara,
1974) and, edited by the same author, "Ermeniler Hakkinda Makaleler -
Derlemeler," (Ankara, 1978). "Askeri Tarih Belgeleri ...," Vol. 32, 83
(December 1983), document numbered 1881.
"Askeri Tarih Belgeleri ....," Vol. 31, 81 (December 1982), document
numbered 1869.
"Those who were capable of fighting were taken away at the very beginning
with the excuse of forced labor in road construction, they were taken
in the direction of Sarikamis and annihilated. When the Russian army
withdrew, a part of the remaining people was destroyed in Armenian
massacres and cruelties: they were thrown into wells, they were locked
in houses and burned down, they were killed with bayonets and swords, in places
selected as butchering spots, their bellies were torn open, their lungs
were pulled out, and girls and women were hanged by their hair after
being subjected to every conceivable abominable act. A very small part
of the people who were spared these abominations far worse than the
cruelty of the inquisition resembled living dead and were suffering
from temporary insanity because of the dire poverty they had lived
in and because of the frightful experiences they had been subjected to.
Including women and children, such persons discovered so far do not
exceed one thousand five hundred in Erzincan and thirty thousand in
Erzurum. All the fields in Erzincan and Erzurum are untilled, everything
that the people had has been taken away from them, and we found them
in a destitute situation. At the present time, the people are subsisting
on some food they obtained, impelled by starvation, from Russian storages
left behind after their occupation of this area."
Source: "Adventures in the Near East" by A. Rawlinson, Jonathan Cape,
30 Bedford Square, London, 1934 (First published 1923) (287 pages).
(Memoirs of a British officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5
million Muslim people)
p. 184 (second paragraph)
"I had received further very definite information of horrors that
had been committed by the Armenian soldiery in Kars Plain, and as
I had been able to judge of their want of discipline by their
treatment of my own detached parties, I had wired to Tiflis from
Zivin that 'in the interests of humanity the Armenians should not
be left in independent command of the Moslem population, as, their
troops being without discipline and not under effective control,
atrocities were constantly being committed, for which we should
with justice eventually be held to be morally responsible'."
p. 177 (third paragraph)
"Armenian troops, who, having pillaged and destroyed all the
Moslem villages in the plain...."
"Caravans of refugees were in the meanwhile constantly arriving from the
plain, from which the whole Moslem population was fleeing with as much of
their personal property as they could transport, seeking to obtain security
and protection..."
p. 178 (first paragraph)
"In those Moslem villages in the plain below which had been searched
for arms by the Armenians everything had been taken under the cloak of
such search, and not only had many Moslems been killed, but horrible
tortures had been inflicted in the endeavour to obtain information as
to where valuables had been hidden, of which the Armenians were aware
of the existence, although they had been unable to find them."
p. 181 (first paragraph)
"the Armenians from the plain were attacking the Kurdish line with
artillery, with probably a large force in support."
p. 175 (first paragraph)
"The arrival of this British brigade was followed by the announcement
that Kars Province had been allotted by the Supreme Council of the
Allies to the Armenians, and that announcement having been made, the
British troops were then completely withdrawn, and Armenian occupation
commenced. Hence all the trouble; for the Armenians at once commenced
the wholesale robbery and persecution of the Muslem population on the
pretext that it was necessary forcibly to deprive them of their arms.
In the portion of the province which lies in the plains they were able
to carry out their purpose, and the manner in which this was done will
be referred to in due course."
Serdar Argic | 5 |
1,174 |
The FBI says that some of the survivors claim to have seen the leaders
of the cult talking about setting a fire, and to have smelt kerosene.
I assume this will come out at any trial that occurs as a result
of these events. | 5 |
7,300 | <cpr@igc.apc.org> (in real life, Elias DAvidson) quotes
A nutcase quoting a crackpot.
Next time, post this to rec.humor, or perhaps alt.conspiracy.
| 5 |
6,753 | Mark Ira Kaufman writes | 5 |
4,042 |
I have a joint House-Senate conference committe report (i.e., crime bill)
for the 102rd Congress which contains a "Brady Bill -- 7 day waiting period"
within it. I believe it just died and never came up for a vote in either
house.
They got four years of Clinton's support to pass it. | 5 |
1,121 | Apparently needing to clarify his comments from Thursday, Dr. Nizam
Plawaby (spelling?), the Medical Examiner for Tarrant County, Texas,
who has authority in the Waco deaths, stated that since no autopsies
had been performed, there is no evidence for bullet wounds, or
evidence against bullet wounds.
Janet Reno also stated that she had never been told of bullet wounds
by anyone in the Justice Department.
| 5 |
4,600 | Today the Texas ME found two people, a man and a woman shot in the head
inside the burned compound. But these were not the people that the FBI
described a few days before. The FBI said that the person found in front of
the compound had been shot and several children were also. The two people
found today were on top of the main inside concrete bunker that provided
the most protection during the fire. So the comment that children were
shot is still not proved.
| 5 |
3,099 | And just where is the evidence for this? FBI sayso. The Texas Medical
Examiner refuted 2 of their lies today.
Let me put you in a building, pump in CS, knock the walls down around
you and see how fast you find an exit.
I don't know why either, you're willing to swallow everything fed you.
Good boy.
Oh a Clinton apologist, why didn't you *say* so.
The kgBATF was expecting a quick victory while the cameras rolled,
however, they were the only ones with a script.
Hey, you're the apologist, *you* tell us.
| 5 |
2,773 |
That includes suicides. Since it has been shown in other countries that
suicide rates are pretty much independent of the means available for
doing oneself in (studies include some done/published in Japan, Canada,
Austria, Norway), suicides ought not be included in the count.
If this is done, the number of vehicle-related deaths greatly exceeds that
of firearms-related deaths in Texas.
Certainly not.
Why? Unless it's doing something that directly hurts someone else, what's
the point? (Otherwise, you'd better stop operating all motor vehicles, since
the price of operating them *greatly* exceeds the cost in lives of firearms.
WEll, it's been done at least twice. South (North?) Carolina did it a few
years back...and watched its crime rate relative to the rest of the country
rise quite a bit.
Virginia just passed the law...no word yet on what the results will be, but
I'd be willing ot bet that a reduction in crime rates won't be one of them.
Self-defense doesn't "inflict" on other people (except perhaps the criminal
who's tried to do you damage, and maybe indirectly on future potential victims
who might not become victims).
-- | 5 |
4,385 | [Posting the text of H.R. 711 ...]
[ ... ]
[ ... ]
Note that this is a "licensing bill," pretending to be a "training bill." | 5 |
3,781 |
Because the Gun loonies were firing on vehicles with 50mm amunition that
has a range of 3000 meters.
Next question.
The problem is of course the laws that allow a bunch of raving nutters
to collect a huge stack of arms in the first place.
The sequence of events meant that there really was no option but to
attempt some sort of breakthrough via an intervention. If the FBI had
had the stomach for it they could have mounted a commando type
raid and attempted to save the children by shooting all the adults.
It really was a no win situation. Koresh had plenty of opportunity
to give up and stand trial for the murder of the 4 ATF officers. Instead
he ordered the murder of the children.
In order to reject the word of the FBI and BATF it is neccessary to beleive
the words of a man who has just murdered 17 children and ordered the
suicide/murder of his other 80 followers. According to the account given
the BATF attempted to serve a warrant upon Koresh at the ranch and were met
by gunfire in a deliberate attempt to murder them. The Koresh/gun supporter
claim that the BATF started shooting simply does not stand up. If the
AFT had gone there to start shooting they would have gone with heavier
grade weaponry than standard issue handguns. For all practical purposes
they were unarmed, the B-D followers had automatic weapons.
The B-D seige could not be allowed to go on indefinitely. The B-D were
quite capable of commiting mass suicide and murdering the children at any
time. A commando assault was the only other likely action that could have
achieved that objective, that would have been very risky, orders of
magintude harder than Antebbe or the Iranian Embassy Seige. Airplanes
and Embassies are not designed for defense against attack ranch
apocalypse was. 6 terrorists are far easier to disloge without casualties
than 80.
Allowing the siege to go on was not an option either, besides the serious
risk that Koresh would proclaim armageddon at any moment there was the
question of the difficulties of keeping the emmergency team on standby over
a prolonged period. The longer the siege went on the more mentally prepared
Koresh and his followers would be for a prolonged siege. Rather than go
in prematurely the mistake was probably to go in too soon.
Can you think of a better way of getting the children out?
A 100% certain way?
The people who do not want gun control must obviously discount the entire
government story. This is simply rationalisation. It is not enough for
them to simply dismiss the government as incompetent. That would require
them to come up with a solution themselves. Instead they have to come
up with a government conspiracy theory whereby the government decided to
set out to murder 80 people just to set up some sort of scare to alow them
to get gun control legislation through.
This conspiracy theory assumes that the BATF deliberately got 4 of its
agents killed and that the FBI etc actually enjoy sitting out in the
middle of Texas being shot at by religious nutters.
Still the conspiracy theory is comforting, it allows them to pretend that
WACO proves nothing except about how incompetent the government is in
resolving a hostage crisis. No govt in the world has ever faced a
comparable situation, quite probably there was no manner in which it
could be peacefully resolved. The blame does not rest on the FBI, it
rests on the fact that Koresh was allowed to get so far, in particular
the person who tipped the B-D off in advance has the murder of 4 ATF
agents and 17 children on his or her conscience.
There are a large number of people in the US who predict the end of society
preach salvation through armed security. The fact is that these are the
very people who pose the threat to society in the first place. The next WACO
may not be religious nutters but a political movement. A splinter group
of the Klu Klux Klan taking over a schoolhouse in a black area for example
and holding several hundred children hostage.
The only possible solution to such situations that can work is to prevent
them arising. No other government in the world has faced such a situation.
this is because no other government has so carelessly allowed high power
weaponry to become avaliable to any little Hitler or would be Messiah
to set themselves up as dictator in their own little empire.
| 5 |
7,339 |
My reference is a 4 page essay in our local Star Tribute newspaper
putting the whole conflict in perspective. I will readily admit
that I am no authority in this area; however, other posteers
asserted that *some* Muslims did join hands with Croats and
Nazis in persecuting Serbs. In any case, past actions do not
in any way validate or legitimize what is happending there now.
I sincerely do apologize to the extent the author of the essay
was wrong in making the assertion he made.
Maybe, some student of history may put this in perspective.
Satya Prabhakar
| 5 |
7,485 | Just saw a new commercial(?) by the NRA. It starts out with a
bunch of politicians talking about how to get rid of crime.
They finally realize that they need to put criminals away
longer but there isn't enough jail space so they decide on another gun
law.( During this whole seen there quoteing various statistics on how
easy criminals get off )
In the next seen the politician is announceing on tv how this gun law
will get rid of crime and there is this grungy looking guy (criminal)
watching him on tv just laughing his ass off.
Classic. | 5 |
7,236 | I think there are some generally accepted criteria according to which
one can evaluate whether certain policies or practices constitute
racial discrimination. These criteria are to be found for example in the
1. International Convention for Abolition of All Forms of Racial
Discrimination (ratified by most countries)
2. The International Covenant of Political and Civil Rights
3. The Human Rights Charter
4. The European Convention of Human Rights
If one reads carefully how racial discrimination is defined in these
legally binding instruments, and does not resort to sophistry, it is
obvious that the State of Israel is guilty of racial discrimination.
The people suffering the most extreme form of racial discriminatnion
by the Zionist regime are the Palestinian refugees, some of whom live
under Israeli military control and others who live in the diaspora.
They are not entitled to return to their homeland for the sole
reason that they are not Jews. International law does not include any
provisions which permits such denial of rights, under any circumstance.
Israel's actions of denial are totally illegal and immoral. By allowing
the return of the refugees and permitting them to settle in Tel in any area of
the State of Israel, the State would finally gain its legitimaty under
international law and could be justified in asking to be recognized. It
would facilitate the peaceful integration of Israel into the Middle-east
and constitute the best guarantee for permanent Jewish presence -
in the area. Any attempt to create a separation, formal and human, between the
Israeli Jewish and Palestinian Arab communities, is fraught with
genociadal implications. I hope that U.S. Jews, who sincerely wish that
peace prevail in Israel/Palestine, will finally realize this fact.
Elias Davidsson
| 5 |
3,275 |
CHEERS Brandon. That's the best suggestion I have seen that. !!! | 5 |
1,724 |
You deliberately deleted a line! I don't remember how wrote it, but I remember
what he wrote. He wrote
Happy 45 birth day of Israel!
and I worte:
Is this means that the number of the people have been killed by Israel are so
high that you can not keep the track of, or this is also a part of Zionism
ideology that you don't need to keep the track of the people you kill?
Just kill!
Hamid
| 5 |
2,398 |
Let's go to the videotape. Here's exactly what you posted:
So if you weren't saying that the deaths of "bastard children of a sacreligious
zealot" was no big thing (and I know I am not the only one who read it that
way), just what the hell WERE you saying?
So who brainwashed YOU into believing that whatever the government says it
the truth? Or that Koresh was any actual threat to you and the rest of the
US? Haven't you ever stopped to wonder WHY the government raided this farm?
This raid was NOT ABOUT RELIGION, SEX, OR CHILD ABUSE. To the best available
evidence at the moment, this raid, psychological torture, and group death was
about Koresh's failure to PAY A $200 TAX on ONE grenade launcher that he may
or may not even have had! That's why it was the BATF doing the raiding in the
first place.
Do you think a $200 tax evasion justifies an armed assault by the government
with 100 armed men in trailers, orchestrated character assassination, noise
torture, and a holocaust?
Then think before you post.
-- | 5 |
6,543 | # : # Can someone tell me why when Mr. Cramer spouts on about homosexuals,
# : # he only addresses homosexual men, and never, in any post I've read,
# : # addressed lesbians?
#
# : I can't really speak for Mr. Cramer here, but I can say that a
# : homosexual [male] is an entirely different animal than a lesbian.
# : There is virtually nothing that is analogous or related between the
# : aberrant behaviors practiced by these two groups of deviants.
#
# The last time I checked homosexual men and women were both human.
I think Mr. Kaldis was using the expression in the slang sense,
though I agree it is NOT an appropriate expression to use in this
context.
# They both prefer to engage in sexual acts with people of the same
# gender. There is nothing inherently wrong with the "trademark behaviour"
# of either homosexual men or homosexual women, except in the minds of
# misinformed folk, clueless folk, and bigots.
#
# So what makes homosexual men and homosexual women different animals?
#
# Michael D. Adams (starowl@a2i.rahul.net) Enterprise, Alabama
1. That homosexual men are extremely promiscuous, and homosexual women
are, if any more promiscuous than heterosexual women, it's not by
much.
2. That homosexual men are overrepresented among child molesters
(about 30% of child molestation is done by homosexual or bisexual
men), while homosexual women don't appear to be similarly over-
represented.
| 5 |
1,703 |
Wait a minute. The story being pushed here is that the fire started
in ONE PLACE. This is not consistent with the story that they were
TRAPPED by the fire (particularly in a building that all of a sudden
had many more exits).
Choose one, please.
Well, for everyone besides Koresh and his blood children, we can
assume independent choice: Ah, they chose to stay in the face of
an assault which clearly endangered their lives. Or, alternatively,
they were not permitted to leave. Choose one.
| 5 |
3,771 | ((fluffy bi fantasy squelched))
Dear Mr. Elf, | 5 |
2,261 | From article <pdb059-220493112512@kilimanjaro.jpl.nasa.gov>, by pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov (Paul Bartholomew):
#> A very well put together post. I disagree with several key points, but the
#> post is an excellent one with which to "engage in discourse":
I agree wholeheartedly. Paul, you have handled this so well,
I think that you could write ballot materials.
No, don't stop!
#> Right to Equal Opportunity (lets call it REO) involves coercion in all cases
#> (by definition).
Good question. It just depends. How's that for an answer? :-)
Seriously, I believe that it depends on wether or not you are
talking about a governmental employer or not. In this case, I
believe that there should be absolutely no discrimination,
direct or indirect, period. I feel this way not because it would
offend my moral sensibilities (which it of course would), but
because the government is a coercive entity which we cannot
escape. It boggles my mind that in my lifetime, there were
"whites only" drinking fountains in some parks, but no fountains
for others, yet the taxes garnished to support those fountains
certainly were not applied to "whites only." In essence, we
cannot escape the coercive state. Even Randy Weavers have to pay
property tax. On the other hand, private employers are not a
monopoly, and their businesses should be run by them, and not by
the government, unless they elect to turn their affairs over to
that government.
#> Why? Says who? Why can mom & pop have FOA, but IBM be forced, and force is
#> the correct word here, to have REO?
But if the mom & pop store is affected by who they hire,
isn't IBM? There is a slippery slope here. In Santa Cruz
(where a number of loony anti-discrimination laws exist),
a guy sued a restaurant for not hiring him because he had
every imaginable kitchen utensil dangling from his earlobe,
and his tatoos were very distracting.
#> Suddenly, by arm waving, by magic, a landlord does not have FOA. And on
#> what basis does the FOA of the landlord "disappear"?
#> It seems that vague terms like "no contact with tenants" suffice.
I have a lot of interaction (all positive) with my tenants,
so I guess that that isn't an issue. But say I were to buy
a unit in another town, and have it managed by a third party.
Let's say that I have a real aversion to Christians because
of the stuff that they buy into hook line and sinker, and
because of the lunatic schmucks that they try to get elected.
I don't want any of those fish symbols hanging in the window
of a house that I own. Should the government intervene? If
I was Elie Weizel and the only rental applicant was Tom
Metzger, should I be forced to rent this distant unit to him?
#> The companies on the Fortune 500, for example, are all privately owned. They
#> can give you a list of all of their owners. They have no "anonymous",
#> unknown to them, owners.
Yes, and the neat thing about this is that unlike the mom &
pop store, you and I can buy shares in IBM, and have influence
over their decision making policies if we don't like them.
Anyway, Paul, keep up the good work. | 5 |
3,807 |
Well, that was an easy decision. No more Bianchi anything for me.
| 5 |
808 |
Yes the govt handled it in the Rambo Hollywood type style
with extreeme Machismo. Perhaps thats not the way to handle
it.
It is a completely different thing to start asserting as many
have done that the government is primarily to blame. The comparisons
with the NAZIs in particular are purely gratuitous.
Since you have provided a constructive opinion on the issue your
post desreves to be taken seriously. Peter Nelson also made some
very good points about how a low key approach might have been
more effective.
The point is though that you learn through mistakes. The govt
played the wrong card and lost. Thats not a big deal. They
had had four guys murdered at the begining and maybee they
just were not prepared for wuite this situation. Who could be?
If the same thing were to happen all over again we might perhaps
be able to castigate the Govt if they used the same tactics and failed
in the same way. As it is I can't say that I would not have made the
same mistake. Maybee I wouldn't because I don't as a rule go in
for a confrontational situation if I can avoid it. Maybee I would
because with all those press about its very difficult not to try
the macho stuff.
The FBI had information from within the compound we had no access
to. They may have calculated that the B-D followers resolve was
cracking based on their listening devices within the compound. They
knew that Koresh had chickened out of one suicide attempt. This
may have been the reason why they considered that fear might have
been a weapon for breaking his resolve. Again in Panama they had used
the heavy rock music to great effect during Bush's invasion. Funny that
few of the Koresh supporters and appologists complain much about the
death of several thousand Pananmanian civilians while the US govt attempted
to arrest their former ally.
Koresh negated his civil rights the minute his followers fired
on the police helicopter. No matter whether the warrant was or
was not technically valid the guys who were carrying it out
thought that it was. Thus the assault on them was completely
inexcusable no matter what rationalisation people might wish to
employ.
Of course we have to consider the guns issue. That is the whole
core of the question. Everything else is a diversion.
| 5 |
4,326 |
It is not a matter of dis-belief but a matter of which of their constantly
(and radically) changing stories we are to believe.
Steve B. | 5 |
3,584 |
Israeli nationalism (also known as Zionism) is the nationalism of the
Jewish people. The Jewish people are not a new phenomenon at all.
Palestinean nationalism is the nationalism of Arab people. Arabs have
been around for a long time. They already have some 2 dozen states,
large and small, covering 98% of the Middle East.
More specifically, Palestinean nationalism is the nationalism of Arabs
from the region of Palestine, just as Egyptian nationalism is the
nationalism of Arabs from the region of Egypt. One Palestinean state
already exists in what was once known as Palestine: - it is called
Jordan.
There is no justification in carving out a second and tiny Palestinean
state out of the only Jewish state, itself very, very small, just as
there is no justification in carving out another American state out of
Mexico.
| 5 |
5,347 |
Which number is that? Zero?
Please present "a number" of authoritative works which "suggest"
that "homosexuality is a form of mental disorder, caused by
childhood sexual abuse."
Don't present your own biased conclusions, based on a collage
of tidbits you've extracted from a few hours' research, as the
conclusions of people who study mental disease and sexual abuse
professionally. | 5 |
580 |
From what I saw of the videotape, there was an explosion which looked
more like one due to propane rather than (official version)
ammunition.
If only we could be certain that the hard evidence will be released. | 5 |
1,381 |
And now he is posting lies about Benjamin Franklin in talk.politics.misc.
Seems our Mr. Salah will stoop to any level (or is that *climb*) to
spread his hate.
| 5 |
1,077 |
First of all, I wouldn't have gone after the Davidians for a firearms
violation which I object to in the first place. Second, I wouldn't
have executed a search warrant via an armed assault when all the
Davidians were sure to have been there. Third of all, I wouldn't have
cut off all outside communication to Koresh. And I certainly wouldn't
have gone in with a tank-- time was on the FBIs side. Since they had
outside resupply, they could wait indefinitely.
| 5 |
4,409 | Those of us who questioned the mass suicide line may still have
wondered, "If it wasn't suicide, why did so few get out?" The
answer is now available - the gas the government had been pouring
in on them is so disabling that its use in wartime is banned by the
chemical weapons treaty.
The U.S. had agreed not to use this gas against enemy soldiers in
wartime, but used it in peacetime against civilians, including
nnocent children.
For confirmation see Friday's CLINTON:AM press briefing by George
Stephanopoulous, posted in alt.news-media and other locations.
(When questioned about it, his reply was that the treaty did
not forbid its internal use by law enforcement agencies.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This posting from Stephen F. Austin State University's ANONYMOUS account.
Please report abuses to newsmgr@ccsvax.sfasu.edu | 5 |
1,587 | ...
If we are indeed talking about CS, then this is not quite accurate. CS is
"just" tear gas--albeit the worst kind. It isn't a nausea gas, and doesn't
have direct CNS effects. However, it's quite bad--much worse than CN gas. I
was briefly exposed to it once (during an engagement in Berkeley circa 1968
8^) and it's not the kind of thing you forget. It seems to be
moisture-activated--it not only made my eyes sting and water, but attacked
my breathing passages and lungs. Breathing was painful, and my entire face
felt as if it was on fire. These effects persisted for hours after
exposure, and I was coughing for days afterwards. If I was exposed to a
dense concentration of this stuff in a closed space for several hours, I
doubt whether I could find the exit. Indeed, I can't imagine living through
it.
| 5 |
6,560 | 5 | |
3,327 | [...]
Mr. Kuo: I don't recall seeing your byline around much before (at least
on t.p.m). Let me clue you in on this newsgroup. t.p.m is populated
largely by people whose hatred for the U.S. government, especially
the government of Mr. Clinton, is literally boundless. To these
people, the suggestion that agents of the U.S. government would carry
out a spectacular massacre of its own citizens, in full view of TV
cameras, is not an 'extraordinary claim'. It's just another day in
the life of these United States.
They don't have to suggest any reason why the FBI would want to
publicly massacre citizens. Have you seen 'The Crying Game'?
"It's in their nature".
Don Pajerek | 5 |
3,293 |
Shooting those .44 cal. blanks, I suspect. Them movie guys is dangerous.
Practice with them, I hope.
-- | 5 |
6,006 |
This is a very impotant update, I will omit just a few lines, and add
some "overhead" for the sake of the copyright :-)
I say despite all the bad news for Muslims around the world, things are
shaping up very well, a lot of killings might happen in the near future,
though (as if Bosnia is not a lot).
Right now, I feel like saying what Martillo said : "the stage is set".
I don't think that things will be the same in ten year,
On the pessimistic/realistic side, we can only see the stage set for more
wars imposed on our people, and governments being remote controlled.
to fight each other and to oppress their own people, but I am confident
they will all fall:
I venture to list the order: Sudan/Yemen alliance, Algeria/Libya in 5 years,
Tunisia one year later but Egypt may face direct colonization very soon to
prevent an Islamic government which might take over after Egypt attacks
SUdan and is envolved in atrocities there as it fails to achieve
victory. Meanwhile Saudia faces a civil war and goes to war
with Yemen/Sudan over it, The new North African
Alliance (Algeria/Tun/Libya) goes to war with Morocco who attacks it.
U.S/France involved everywhere but cannot concentrate on one place,
especially that Syria/Jordan/Iraq have to be kept under control.
After the cloud clears, I do not know what the end result will be,
O.K back to reality:
CAIRO, Egypt (UPI) -- The Cairo-based Arab Organization for Human
Rights (AOHR) Sunday called on King Fahd of Saudi Arabia to order the
release of members of the kingdom's first human rights group. | 5 |
156 | Is anyone out there knowledgeable on drug issues in Japan? I'm interested
in knowing if Japan has or has ever had a problem with drugs, and how they
dealt with it. I've heard, undocumented, that Japan years ago used heavy
legal penalties to end a serious heroin problem. I'd like to know both
sides of the story. Does anyone recall such a problem? What were laws
at the time relating to drug use, drug dealing, and drug trafficking? What
are the laws now? What other anti-drug measures, like education and treatment
has Japan used? How are drugs regarded by the Japanese people? How effective
have anti-drug measures been in Japan? Thanks for your help.
| 5 |
345 |
( I AGREE ! )
I think the problem here is that Mrs. Reno strikes me
( After watching NightLine Last night ) as a person who is incapable
of understanding OR dealing with a great number of things.
| 5 |
58 | This is the AP story from Fri morning.
As the walls came tumbling down and tear gas filled the air, cult leader
David Koresh sprang into action. He left his third-floor bedroom and began
looking around the house, making sure women and children were secure and
checking that everyone had their gas masks on properly. Within hours, the
compound became an inferno. Nine Branch Davidians excaped.
This is their story, gleaned from lawyers who spoke with six of them
who are jailed on charges that include conspiracy and murder. That day the
six said a portable radio offered the only contact with the outside world
since Koresh's right-hand man, Steve Schneider, ripped out the compounds's
phone line after FBI agents called before dawn Monday saying this was the
cults last chance: Come out or prepare to get forced out.
They kept their word. By dawn, tanks were battering the Mount Carmel
compound, punching for hours to creat holes for tear gas to enter. The BD
meanwhile proceeded with their daily routines. Strapped into gas masks, the
women did laundry. Others read Bibles in their rooms. The 17 children, all
under 10, remained by their mothers' sides. Still, it was hard to ignore what
was happening around them. Each time a tank rammed the poorly-constructed building
it shook violently. Cult members dodges falling gypsum wallboard and doors.
Hundreds of gas canisters hurled in from the armored vehicles were filling
the air with noxious fumes. The flying canisters were more frightening than
the tanks. At least one man was hit in the face. The gas began filling the air,
driven by heavy gusts of wind coming through windows and the holes the tanks
made. Scattered throughout the house, the cult members made no efforts to
gather. Then the FBI sent in its biggest weapon -- a massive armored vehicle
headed for a chamber, lined with cinder blocks, where authorities hoped to
find Koresh and Schneider and fire tear gas directly at them.
Here the cult members' story diverges from the government's version. The
FBI says cult members set fires in three places. But each of the six cult
members, in separate discussions with lawyers, consistently gave versions
at odds with the FBI's account. They say the tank flattened a barrel of
propane, spilling its contents. And as the tank thundered through the house,
it tipped over lit lanterns, spitting flames that ignited the propane and
other flammables. The home of used lumber, plywood, and wallboard tacked
together with tar paper was vulnerable. The building erupted. Nine BD's
escaped jumping through windows and dashing through other openings. Others
died groping in the blackness. | 5 |
6,252 |
[pseudo-letterhead deleted -- dcs]
# While Israeli Jews fete the uprising of the Warsaw ghetto, they
# repress by violent means the uprising of the Gaza ghetto and
# attempt to starve the Gazans.
Why do I detect the faint scent of bias here? Could it be because
the Israelis aren't feasting? Perhaps because the Gazans aren't
starving?
# The Gaza strip, this tiny area of land with the highest population
# density in the world,
Oh, oh. I hadn't realized that the Chinese had wiped out Hong
Kong, or that Singapore had sunk into the sea, or that several
other cities had vanished. Either that, or this is a taste of
the quality of 'Research' we're about to see.
# has been cut off from the world for weeks.
So I suppose that the footage on CNN last night was archival,
and Ted Turner was faking it after the NBC style? Or is this
another wee little exaggeration for the sake of a Greater Truth?
# The Israeli occupier has decided to punish the whole population of
# Gaza, some 700.000 people, by denying them the right to leave the
# strip and seek work in Israel.
Hey! You forgot that Israel has also denied Syrians the same
'right'. Come to think of it, Mexico is denying me that 'right'
evan as I write this! Or are you ever so gently suggesting that
Israel, unlike every other country on Earth, shouldn't be allowed
to control traffic across its borders?
# While Polish non-Jews risked their lives to save Jews from the
# Ghetto, no Israeli Jew is known to have risked his life to help
# the Gazan resistance. The only help given to Gazans by Israeli
# Jews, only dozens of people, is humanitarian assistance.
This sounds like a parallel, but it isn't. Tell us how many Poles
went into the Ghetto to join the Jews there. Oops! For a moment
there I forgot that in Poland, 'humanitarian assistance" could
get you killed. Come to think of it, humanitarian assistance to
the Gazans can get Israelis killed, too. Except that in Gaza,
it's likely to be by a Gazan death squad in your own office.
So let's keep the parallel. Since the gross numbers aren't the
same, we'll need a proportionality value. Should we use:
* Gazan vs Jewish initial population?
* Gazan vs Jewish death rates?
* Gazans vs Jews who survived five years of occupation?
* Israelis vs Nazis attacked by the 'resistance'?
* Israelis vs Poles charged with aiding the victims?
Since the two cases are so comparable, it shouldn't matter
which we pick, they'll all be about the same, right?
------------
Contrary to popular hyperbole, the IDF *could* quite easily kill
off the entire population of Gaza in hours if they wanted to.
(No, I'm not exaggerating. And I really don't want to discuss how.)
Note that a million dead Gazans don't get much more headline
space than a dozen, and are just as soon forgotten -- and once
exterminated, they can't keep popping up as headlines.
So if a "Final Solution" for Gaza would be so much better from
a *Realpolitik* standpoint, why doesn't Israel go for it? A
difficult question to answer for those who can't believe anything
good about Jews, and probably why they keep trying to force-fit
the facts into the theory.
| 5 |
5,157 | Subject: RE: Europe vs. Muslim Bosnians
From: f54oguocha
Date: 13 MAY 93 02:28:53 GMT
Serbs.
1929).
Islam
not
who
Croats?
has
childhood was
You've asked a crucial question that underlies much of the genocide.
Bosnian Muslims are slavic in ethnicity. They speak Serbo-Croatian. But
there is a Christo-Slavic ideology whereby all true slavs are Christian
and anyone who converted to Islam thereby must have changed ethnicity by
changing religion. See the poems of Ngegos or the novels of Ivo Andric
who brilliantly displays these attitudes on the part of what he calls
"the people" (i.e. Christian slavs). For this reason, the war-criminals
call all the Bosnian Muslims "Turks" even though they are not ethnically
Turk and do not speak Turkish as their first language. For this reason,
what is actually a genocide labeled against those who are ethnically
identical but religiously "other" is called, paradoxically, "ethnic
cleansing" rather than "religious cleansing."
Thus, while a war rages between Serbs and Croats as a continuation of
WWII, and older agenda, the annihilation of Islam and Muslims from
Bosnian, is being carried out under the cover of the Serbo-Croat war.
Regards,
Mike. | 5 |
4,237 | Doesn't seem like those responsible for the assault were very concerned
about the welfare of the children inside. Seems like they were more
interested in flexing their muscle before the media. My reasoning?
Just ask yourself this one question:
Suppose the scenario was slightly different and we had Chelsea Clinton
being kidnapped by terrorists, holed up in a compound for 51 days.
Do you think Clinton, Reno, the FBI, and the ATF would be so eager
to use a show of force?
Nuff said.
--
Richard Mulac ck347@cleveland.freenet.edu | 5 |
167 | And
And Bejing = Peking, who cares about native tongue, as long as we all
understand each other.
Oh, not more than a few feet, I wouldn't think. I'm sorry IF your paternal
grandparents died in Oswiecym or Aushwitz, which is easier to say than prove,
but if so, the lesson they paid thier lives for was wasted on you.
You are the expert. I often feel compelled to brag about the circumstances of
my grandparent's death. 8-}
A BATF offense, if true.
A LOCAL offense, if true. Totally outside the BATF's domain.
I didn't know the man. Just what the TV chose to tell me.
I thought there were prejudicial undertones here. I would trust my daughter's
judgement.
I don't believe either side blindly.
IF they fired first, without announcing in a beleivable way who they were ( I
can pound on your door and claim to be the police, will you just lay down and
take it if I do?), then he could be justified in firing on the ATF in
self-defense.
"His background"? What law has he been convicted of breaking in the past?
Jim
--
jmd@handheld.com | 5 |
5,421 |
Local media hasn't said much, if anything, about the MOW. Also, when
I called a straight friend in Arlington to tell him I would be on his
doorstep this weekend, he didn't know anything at all about the march.
This is a gay-sympathetic person who notices things like this. I
thought it was strange that he was unaware of what was happening. It
made me wonder just how much coverage is getting to "mainstream" America.
| 5 |
4,436 |
Sealing off the Gaza Strip has the interesting side-effect of
demonstrating the non-viability of Gaza as an independent state.
Where are all of these people going to go to find work if they are
separated from Israel? If they complain about having to show id cards
on the way to work, how will they feel about showing passports on the
way to work?
| 5 |
1,307 |
It is indeed different usage of the word Muslim . In Bosnia , it is more or
less used as an ethnic term not as religious one . There are people in Bosnia
who refer to themselves as "Christian Bosnian Muslims" if you can make sense
of that . Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Muslims have the same language.
Bosnian Muslims are mainly beleivers of Islam. I got this from Bosnian Muslim
friend of mine who goes to University of Texas in Austin. | 5 |
6,620 |
As David Veal points out, this sort of "promotion" would be used
against gun owners by the mass media.
However, here is my proposal: offer gun safety classes in your area,
free, as a community service. Such a class would normally cost $40
or $50, so offering it free is a good promotion.
Our Gun Club has organized several of these (we just finished
teaching another one last night, in fact) and they have been
very well received. We get a lot of people who are novices
interested in guns. We even get a few who are anti-gun, but
feel they should know something about "gun safety" since members
of their family keep guns at home.
Teaching such a course gives us many desirable benefits:
(1) We have the chance to teach gun safety rules; this increases
firearm awareness and may help to reduce gun accident stats.
(2) A "gun safety" class is Politically Correct, and likely to
be viewed positively by the public and the media.
(3) Most of the students are 'normal people' (not gun enthusiasts)
and this kind of class gives us the chance to give them a
gentle introduction to firearms.
(4) Some of the students are enthusiastic, and will purchase a gun
and become more involved in shooting or personal defense.
(5) It improves the public perception of our club and gun owners
in general. Our students see that we are all reasonable,
non-aggressive, soft-spoken people, which helps to mitigate
the standard image of a hardcore gun owner. Even anti-gun
students sometimes tell us they have "something new to think
about" with regards to personal gun ownership.
(6) Sharing our experience with others is a lot of fun.
Our course is the standard NRA-certified "Home Firearm Safety"
class, and our students pay only $5 for materials. We also
teach the NRA's "Personal Protection" class, although the cost
is higher for that one since we have to purchase range time.
I think firearms safety classes are an excellent response to
gun buy-backs. | 5 |
4,158 |
Here in Georgia, the state legislature in 1992 "accidentally passed a law
lobbied for by Opthamologists prohibiting anyone but a licensed MD from
giving shots. They were trying to limit Optometrists from competing with
them.
They inadvertantly forbade nurses, EMTs, dentists, and tattoo artists
from "piercing the skin." (probably diabetics too). The Secretary of State's
office announced on June 30th that they wouldn't enforce it pending
reconsideration in the 1003 Legislature. In the hassle over the state flag
I heard nothing about repealing it.
| 5 |
1,535 |
But of course it does. It's certainly a legal matter. If it's not a
legal matter that interest *you* you may simply put it in your kill
file. | 5 |
3,792 | 16. What is the condition of the propane tank mentioned by the BD
survivors? I.e. is it crushed and does it have tread marks on it?
--
Dave Feustel N9MYI <feustel@netcom.com> | 5 |
940 |
Is your stomach all right? Unable to digest your lunch?
Cool down... In the context of Bosnia muslims are a nation.
And nobody talked about them being a race.
And Yugoslavia was a recognized nation. If you apply the principle
of self determination to Yugoslavia then you should apply it to
Croatia and Bosnia. Of course, you might want to apply again to
Kossovo. | 5 |
370 |
James Madison, Federalist Paper 41:
"It has been urged and echoed, that the power ``to lay and
collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts,
and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the
United States,'' amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise
every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common
defense or general welfare...
"No stronger proof could be given of the distress under which
these writers labor for objections, than their stooping to such a
misconstruction. Had no other enumeration or definition of the
powers of the Congress been found in the Constitution, than the
general expressions just cited, the authors of the objection
might have had some color for it; ... But what color can the
objection have, when a specification of the objects alluded to by
these general terms immediately follows, and is not even
separated by a longer pause than a semicolon? ... Nothing is
more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and
then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars.
-- | 5 |
1,478 |
What if we remove one zeron and make it "the genocide of two hundred
thousands Muslims in Bosnia..", would that make it any better..?
And how about the 2,000,000 Muslims who were driven and continue to
be driven out of their homes..? is that "utterly ridiculous claim"?
And how about the rapes (over 60,000 women) and the concentration
camps..? The us delegation which visited them reported yesterday
on CNN that the serbs are giving the muslims detainees 4 biscuits
and a cup of water a day..!!??
That sure also sounds like an "utterly ridiculous claim".!
| 5 |
5,465 | Ilyess sez:
>So how would have *you* defended Saudi Arabia and rolled
>back the Iraqi invasion, were you in charge of Saudi Arabia???
All Muslims knew that the whole thing was set up to destroy Iraq, not
to "Liberate Kuwait", The people who were killed by the invasion are
more (many many more), than the ones that were killed by the Iraqis
in their smaller invasion. I lived in the west, and I have seen how
your media prepared you (helpless naive Americans) for a war against
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
No doubt you plan on exploiting "helpless naive Americans" for your own
purposes. Hmm...let's see:
Iraq even before the artificial conflict between Iraq and Kuwait that
led to the invasion, as the CIA correctly predicted (and pretended to
be surprised not to know).
It just happened that Saddam was so predictible and so arrogant and stupid.
What would I have done: Most Muslims would choose 300 dead Kuwaitis over
200,000 dead Iraqis and 1000 dead Kuwaitis. The first case would happen
if no western intervention happened, and the second case was a direct
or indirect result of western envolvement.
Possibly, if 200,000 Iraqis had indeed died, but this number is based on
Greenpeace estimates. Greenpeace had compromised its alleged
impartiality during the war by condemning the potential environmental
consequences of Allied miiltary action, while initially *completely*
ignoring Iraq's horrible environmental crimes, starting with the dumping
of millions of barrels of oil into the Gulf at Ahmadi to the blowing of
over 700 oil wells. What is the real number? There has been a lot of
work on this in the last two years, none of it reported as the
Greenpeace figure seems to get continuously bandied about. The real
number seems to be around 10,000, on the same order as the number of
Kuwaitis killed, tortured and kidnapped during the occupation. I've
included an article I recently posted below, but this is really old
news. Independent Television News reported a figure around 15,000 only
a few months after the war, but it was hardly reported.
For the Allies to have killed 200,000 Iraqis, they would have had to
kill twice the *total* number of Iraqis in Kuwait.
The favored image of the hysterics is the last battle of the war at
Mutla'. This was yet another example of the American and European media
playing into the hands of Iraq and its de facto allies. The
destruction of the Iraqi convoy at Mutla' was portrayed as an all-out
slaughter. This is simply not true. The head and tail of the convoy
was bombed initially, resulting in a lot of casualties at these points.
Before bombers came back, most of the rest of the Iraqi soldiers fled
on foot.
Furthermore, your estimates of Kuwaiti war dead if Allies hadn't invaded
is completely ridiculous. You have acknowledged (certainly implicitly)
that Saddam is a barbarous brute. You have acknowledged the hundreds
of thousands he has been responible for killing *in his own country*.
You *know* that the man he appointed as governor of Kuwait, Ali Majid,
was his most brutal henchman, presiding over the near genocide of the
Kurds in the late 80's and, more recently, the Shi'a. Yet, when it
comes to his treatment of Kuwaitis, he is an angel. In your estimate,
he would've killed *fewer* than he already had when the war started.
What a joke!
APn 03/09 0006 Iraq War Dead
Copyright, 1993. The Associated Press. All rights reserved. | 5 |
3,798 |
The IRS doesn't need to rely on the Federal Marshall's Services; the
IRS has its own Swat teams. I saw a picture of one in an article on
the IRS in some magazine or other.
--
Dave Feustel N9MYI <feustel@netcom.com> | 5 |
6,632 |
+>1. There is no such thing as non-toxic tear gas. Tear gas is non-breathable
+> remaining in it's presence will cause nausea and vomiting, followed eventually
+> by siezures and death. Did the FBI know the physical health of all the people
+> they exposed?? Any potential heart problems among the B-D's??
They certainly knew that there were pregnant women in there plus
children. I could not believe when they said that the gassing was
an attempt to "save the children" yesterday. I can't think of a much
worse sort of child abuse that pouring tear gas into a building.
+>2. Have you ever seen a tear gas canister?? Tear gas is produced by burning a
+> chemical in the can. The fumes produced are tear gas. The canister has a
+> warning printed on the side of it. "Contact with flamable material can result
+> in fire." Now, how many of these canisters did they throw inside a building
+> they admited was a fire-trap??
I have heard two things recently explaining this:
1. They pumped the gas into the building from outside via some
sort of pipe rather than by canister.
2. The sort of tear gas they are using was described as some
sort of powdery material that sticks to things. Kind of
like a powder cloud.
And once again, these are government lacky explainations and
since government stories always change, none or all of the
information might not be true.
+>This whole thing was a case of over-reaction by the officials at every step.
+>I hope it is thoroughly investigated and the responsible parties are held
+>accountable. But that is highly unlikely when you figure they are going to
+>be investigating themselves. | 5 |
4,921 | Post all you want, foreigner. We'd rather hear from you
than those "I'll support the fascist who writes the
hecks for my salary" .edu site types!
Should you expect the Police to come in and
assault you, lay siege and refuse to help when they
(yes, let's give them the benefit of the doubt)
accidently burn down your ranch home? Even though
ey have emergency vehicles nearby?
Is this a proper response when you just keep to yourself?
Even if you DON'T hurt anyone? And you
're cooperative with cops when you occasionally come out? | 5 |
2,405 | My sig has generated more mail than any of my posts.
Robin Hood is a school financing plan wherein property rich school districts
will have a portion of their tax revenue taken from them and given to property
poor districts. The laudable plan is to equalize the per student spending.
IMHO, however, it is a disaster waiting to happen. Taxes will go up in 50% of
the districts and we will lose control of how OUR tax money is spent. It
penalizes districts that have excelled.
And the election is Saturday. Along with city council, school board and the
unfinished Senate term. And after I exercise one right, I'm going to exercise
another! | 5 |
1,840 | 5 | |
4,883 |
Macedonia said yesterday it had neither requested or needs such
forces.
This is sort of like sending the National Guard to Bel Air when
the riot is in South Central!
Obviously, Clinton is again trying to make policy for image purposes
in America rather than to try to deal with the real problem and
assume a share of responsibility for the problem. He obviously
didn't even consult with the Macedonians...he was just looking at
the map of the former Yugoslavia for the safest place to put
American troops so he could say to the Europeans...hey, look, we
have troops on the ground in the former Yugoslavia too...now let
me bomb so I can make it look like I am doing something in the
American media.
The problem is that the blue berets in Bosnia are dead meat if
Clinton starts bombing, but Clinton doesn't have the courage to
ask that the blue berets leave, because then he becomes primarily
responsible to the Bosnian policy of the UN and the allies.
Clinton wants to have his cake and eat it too...he wants to feel
free to use American military power for the sake of domestic
US politics and his domestic image, but he doesn't want to assume
the primary international leadership role in the UN and among
the allies, like Bush, for all his faults, did in the Gulf War...
because with leadership comes responsibility, and Clinton seems
to want to retain the Europeans as scapegoats.
Clinton wants to leave the Europeans in charge and responsible,
but wants to freelance on the side...and if his freelancing gets
too hot, he wants to be able to cut and run...the American public may
be easily fooled...European leaders aren't. | 5 |
6,082 |
According to an AP report (from Texas, written by Jaime Aron) this morning,
in addtion to the gas pumped in by hoses from CS generators, canisters of
tear gas were thrown into the building from armored vehicles, one of the
canisters hitting a man inside in the face.
This was in the part of the article *before* going into differences in
the stories told by BD survivors and the gov't.
Tear gas canisters *used* to be able to start fires...
-- | 5 |
4,549 |
: Oh? Then why did the smoke and flames start from three different places?
: In particular, three different places where there were no APV's?
The crushed remains of a PRESSURIZED propane tank were found in the ruins
of the BD compound. The key word is PRESSURIZED. When that baby was
crushed, the gas would have gone all over the place. And when ignited,
would look just like the pictures of the explosion we saw on the TV
news. Ammo doesn't go up all at once - kind of like fireworks going off.
Propane gas goes off in a big fireball. Gee, that's kind of consistent
with what the pictorial history shows. Hmmmmm...
: And if the government did start the fire, then why weren't people trying
: to get out of the compound?
Remember, PRESSURIZED gas. People all over the building.
Conflagration in less than a minute. Huge explosion. Gas masks being
worn by the inhabitants. Makes a lot of sense that very few of those
on the inside would even know that the tank was damaged. If they
thought it was just a normal fire, they would probably be trying to
put it out. Then - BOOM - the fireball. After that explosion and
concussion, I doubt anybody on the inside of the building was capable
of moving.
: And besides... oh, I don't know why I'm even bothering.
Good question. Take an objective look at what happened, listen to the
things that the FBI said ("The BD's started the fire." "The BD's bodies
were found with gunshot wounds.") that are now being refuted by the
evidence being recovered. Seems that the FBI is deliberately making
statements that have no rational basis in fact, and trying to make
them sound like fact.
: I find it tremendously chilling that so many people seem eager to believe
: a murderous, heavily-armed religious cult, despite much evidence to the
: contrary. Thought Experiment: Suppose this exact same thing happened under
: the Bush administration. What would your answer be then? Would you still
: prefer to believe the cultists?
Yes, I would still believe that the FBI and the BATF were on a non-stop
string of lies and half-truths. This is consistent with their operations
on numerous occasions.
And as for the BD's being murderous, they did not cause any problems until
they were assaulted by the BATF. So now a thought experiment for you: If
the BATF had never stormed that farm, would four agents and 90 BD's be
dead today?
: (No, I don't really expect a response to that challenge.)
: >But then
: >again, that is how Mr. Clinton was elected, by people who believe that
: >his campaign promisses would be respected by him once he got into office.
: Um, isn't that how all politicians are elected?
Yes. That is how politicians are elected. Kind of scary, isn't it. Now
if we as a people actually held Mr. Clinton to his promises instead of
apologizing and denying that he ever made them, and actually expected
accountability by our government, I doubt that debacles like Waco would
happen as often as they do.
: So is there any particular reason the gummint decided to slaughter eighty
: people? Are they, like, just plain evil, or what? Did they just wake up
: one day, stretch and yawn, and throw a dart at a map of the United States
: to figure out who to oppress that day? I'm eager to know.
Acutally, no. THe BATF has a rather checkered history of staging raids of
this sort just prior to the time when their budget comes up for review.
Oddly enough, their budget was about to be reviewed just two weeks after
the initial raid on the BD's. "Coincidence? I think not!"
And as for the fire, what happened was caused by the act of knocking over
walls with an armored vehicle of destruction. The FBI tried to convince
the world it was suicide, but all of the facts that are coming out by
the investigation of the Texas rangers and medical examiners point to
a gas explosion and quick fire that decimated all of the occupants of the
building. Sounds to me like a law enforcement agency that is trying to
cover its ass.
: And does Bill Clinton have cooler theme music than Darth Vader? How is he
: on diabolical laughter? Does he look good in a cape? These things MUST be
: investigated. You first.
Oh, please. If you want to argue, argue. If you merely want to demean those
who see this differently than you, then please go somewhere else.
: Mark Sachs IS: mbs110@psuvm.psu.edu | 5 |
3,687 |
Good. Another liberal converted by Waco! If Dave had had something
realistic, there would have been none of this "Bradley" vehicle
crap. | 5 |
471 |
Utopia is a myth (although we can do a lot better than what we have today).
But I think that you must pitch Libertarianism as a progressive agenda
(ie You can do better under our style of system).
I'm flattered by your invitation, but I'm afraid you have the wrong person.
Although I completely agree with your civil liberties agenda, I'm not
in support of your economic agenda. What I DO like about the Libertarian
party is that you guys are so good at shaking up the tired ideas of the
past. I encourage you guys to continue your crusade, but I'm afraid I
can't ride along.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Nothing is as inevitable as a mistake whose time has Garrett Johnson
come." --Tussman Garrett@Ingres.com
"The probability of someone watching you is proportional
to the stupidity of your action." - Unknown | 5 |
1,705 | Let me remind all of those Muslim-haters out there who like to
mention the Mufti's cooperation with Germany as a reason to let Muslims
be slaughtered everywhere in the world of the following facts:
1)Why blame the Muslims for what the Nazis did and FORGIVE ITALY, THE CROATS,
AND MANY OTHER EUROPEANS FOR BEING REAL ALLIES TO HITLER?
2)Why blame Muslims for supporting Germany the enemy of their enemy
at the time (Britain who colonized most of the middle east and was responsible
for most atrocities against Muslims in the region) and FORGIVE GERMANY ITSELF
EVENTHOUGH IT IS THE ONE WHO CREATED NAZISM?
3)As far as Muslims are concerned : THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
NAZI GERMANY, AND ANTIMUSLIM COLONIALIST BRITAIN/FRANCE IN 1940. They were
all racist, anti-arab, and full of arrogance and hate. WWII and the wars
in ALgeria, Sudan, and other places proved that very clearly. Even anti-
semitism was not more spread in Germany than in France or Britain, it just
happened to be official policy in Germany.
And we will forgive you, just set our countries free. | 5 |
7,367 | american and european universities were full of Angry Young People(tm)
that wanted to overthrow the government, and wouldn't think twice
about lobbing a molotov cocktail at the national guard (military police
in Europe.)
Certainly, it would have been very bad form to take anything
the System(tm) said at face value.
This was in the end of the sixties and the begining of the seventies,
I'm told. I was too young to remember.
Something wrong happened along the way, I'm afraid. Maybe the west
became just too comfortable, or maybe I was born too late :(
Yours, disappointed with with the youth of today,
PS: 1) Half smilies implied.
2) There *is* a difference between lining up 90 people against the
wall and executing them, and causing their deaths through negligence/
imcompetence. I honestly hope we witnessed the latter. As they say,
the alternative is too horrible to contemplate.
3) I'm sure the Abused Children(tm) from the compound are much
safer now.
-- | 5 |
1,657 |
It is 'Serdar', 'kocaoglan'.
Just say so.
The SUNDAY TIMES 8 March 1992
Morgues fill as Azeris head for all-out war
-------------------------------------------
Thomas Goltz, the first to report the massacre by Armenian soldiers in
the worst violence since the breakup of the Soviet Union, reports from
Agdam
------
Khojaly used to be a barren town, with empty shops and treeless dirt
roads. Yet it was still home to thousands of people who, in happier
times, tended fields and flocks of geese. Last week it was wiped off
the map.
.......
As sickening reports trickled in to the Azerbaijani border town of
Agdam, and the bodies piled up in the morgues, there was little doubt
that Khojaly and the stark foothills and gullies around it had been
the site of the most terrible massacre since the Soviet Union broke
apart.
.......
I was the last Westerner to visit Khojaly. That was in january and
people were predicting their fate with grim resignation. Zumrut Ezoya,
a mother of four on board the helicopter that ferried us into the
town, called her community "sitting ducks, ready to get shot". She and
her family were among the victims of the massacre on February 26.
.......
"The Armenians have taken all the outlying villages, one by one, and
the government does nothing." Balakisi Sakikov, 55, a father of five,
said. "Next they will drive us out or kill us all," said Dilbar, his
wife. The couple, their three sons and three daughters were killed in
the assault, as were many other people I had spoken to.
......
"It was close to the Armenian lines we knew we would have to cross.
There was a road, and the first units of the column ran across then
all hell broke loose. Bullets were raining down from all sides. we had
just entered their trap."
The azeri defenders picked off one by one. Survivors say that Armenian
forces then began a pitiless slaughter, firing at anything moved in
the gullies. A video taken by an azeri cameraman, wailing and crying
as he filmed body after body, showed a grizzly trail of death leading
towards higher, forested ground where the villagers had sought refuge
from the Armenians.
"The Armenians just shot and shot and shot," said Omar Veyselov, lying
in hospital in Agdam with sharapnel wounds. "I saw my wife and
daughter fall right by me."
People wandered through the hospital corridors looking for news of the
loved ones. Some vented their fury on foreigners: " Where is my
daughter, where is my son ?" wailed a mother. "Raped. Butchered. Lost."
Azerbaijan has said as many as 1,000 refugees were killed as they
tried to flee. The Armenians have denied this, saying the civilians
were caught in "crossfire".
.......
Are you idiot for real?
'After all, who remembers today the extermination of the Tartars?'
(Adolf Hitler, August 22, 1939: Ruth W. Rosenbaum (Durusoy),
"The Turkish Holocaust - Turk Soykirimi", p. 213.)
You must be the only moronian left on the net to believe those
ASALA/SDPA/ARF forgeries. What a clown...
'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them and in
whatever circumstances you find them. Turkish children
also should be killed as they form a danger to the
Armenian nation.' (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)[1]
[1] M. Varandian, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun," p. 85.
Serdar Argic | 5 |
4,947 |
The above statement ignores reality. The BD WERE provoked.
Damn, Phil. You must have seen a different tape of the initial raid than
I did. Your `doorbell' happened to include lobbing percussion grenades and
attempting to storm the compound through the windows. I can honestly say
I have never seen a `doorbell' that works like that.
THINK, man. The BATF are serving a warrant on someone who they feel might
have illegal automatic weapons. If they expected, as you state, that `the B-D
to be anything other than peaceful citizens' they could have sent one, maybe
two agents up to the front door, knock, and attempt to serve the warrant on
the person answering the door. Scenario one, that person lets them in to
perform the search and no one gets hurt. Scenario two, the person answering
the door pulls a weapon aand kills both officers. Now you have two dead BATF
agents instead of four, the BATF knows exactly where they stand with regards
to the BD and began to formulate a plan of action to arrest those responsible
without harm to the innocent people/children within the compound.
No, the stupidity was the attempt to serve the warrant SWAT style.
Sure, do it within the law. The BATF is there to uphold the law, not
circumvent it to fit their needs.....
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Paul R. Busta Busta@vicki.enet.dec.com
Salem, N.H.
603-894-3962 | 5 |
678 |
First, a tank drove through the wall into the living room.
I can't stop thinking about the children who were inside
the house (the room?) at the time.
How many people got killed during the Tiannamen Square events?
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed are mine, not my employer's. | 5 |
5,658 | Serdar, I have been told that you are not real, your account is fake (which I
confirmed by trying to E-mail you) and advised not to waste my time writing to
"you". But, I get pleasure from watching you make a fool of yourself.
So you stand by the statement that all Armenians are barbarians. OK, I see.
Lets not even act as if there is a chance they are human. See Serdar, when you
judge people because of their race this is called racism. I tend to frown on
this sort of thing. Obviously you don't. When you label an entire race the
way you do, it is easy to stop thinking of them as human beings, and this can
make GENOCIDE possible. But I guess (and this is where Serdar will fill the
page with quotes taken out of context) you know that, huh?
Don't you find it weak that all of Serdars enemies are
Fascist/NAZI/barbarian/_________fill in the blank with any catch all bad term.
Public knowlege? I was not aware of that. NOW I see, the ARMENIANS decide to
kill the Israeli athletes in 1972 as PRACTICE. I was confused, but thanks for
clearing that up.
Wow, you are on a roll with the accusations today Serdar, so how did the
Armenians steal from the Turkish children? Was it their lunch money? This is
very cute how you inserted children in this fill in the blank accusation sheet
you fill out every day. It really touches my heart. Oh and thank you for
letting me know that Kurds and Armenians hate each other. I was not aware of
this. The only time I have ever talked about Kurds it was about the WONDERFUL
treatment they were recieving in Turkey. They must have a high incedence of
insanity because there sure are a lot of them fighting against the
non-oppresive Turkish government that has let their culture flower over the
past 70 years.
Thanks for the unbiased TURKISH MEDIA SOURCE. I am sure the Milliyet is rated
number one for accuracy and truth.
Innocent? Is that what terrorists call their victims? I have never heard of
terrorists calling their victims innocent. "Yes, folks in other news the IRA
public relations department reported that it had killed 20 innocent victims in
a car bombing... " Nope Serdar, I don't think so.
Oops you almost forgot to fill in the "Say something about Turks being killed
by Armenians here" section of your note.
| 5 |
6,259 |
.
re.
own.
s.
Will do! I appreciate the thoughtfullness of the Post to not be an
intermediary for such sales. The "Right to bear arms" is one of the most
misapplied rights in our Constitution, and assault weapons go way beyond
what is, or rather should be (imho), a "natural" right in America. Just
ask the family of that boy shot back in September - the papers are full of
stories about a child with an assult weapon with a "angelic face" (Post)
who committed the murder without ever thinking.
This has all got to get under control. I applaud the Post for their bravery | 5 |
4,143 |
No crime here.
No crime here.
No crime here.
Also no substantiation of your claim that Koresh said this. I for one have
never heard this mentioned before. Where did you hear it?
Up to which moment? The one where you decided that anyone who claims to be
God no longer has the protection of the Constitution?
What happened to the separation of church and state?
I have yet to see any evidence of *this*, either. From what I hear the
*original* warrant (the reason for the Feb. raid) is still sealed. What are
"unsealed" seem to be warrants taken out after the initial raid.
Funny, I haven't seen any of these "interviews."
Interesting that when the social services agencies investigated Koresh on
these previous charges, they found absolutely no evidence of abuse.
Funny, I don't remember hearing anything about childrens' statements,
either. Where did you say you heard all this?
What *I* heard was that none of the children who left the compound early in
the seige exhibited any signs typical of abuse, physical or mental. This
from the newspaper and national TV news.
Did you also hear that it's the job of the BATF and the FBI to lay siege to
homes where child abuse is suspected? I thought you did.
"Clearly?" Please tell us what Koresh was doing that can be construed as
other than "minding his own business" before the BATF raided the place.
Your logic just amazes me. I think your grandparents who died in
Auschwitz would be turning over in their graves if they could hear how
cavalierly you throw away people's protection of law because you think
they're "scary" and "not the sort of person you'd want your daughter to
date." What sort of people do you suppose the Nazis thought your
grandparents were? Probably not the sort they'd want their little
frauleins dating...
And next I suppose you'll tell us exactly WHO these "well-trained killers"
have killed?
Because you said so, right? Right.
So someone with a different background, say someone who didn't claim to be
the Messiah, in your book COULD shoot and kill Federal Law Enforcement
officials WOULD be a good citizen whose crusade enjoys our support?
Worth the paper it's printed on.
You're amazing, simply amazing. | 5 |
6,110 | From: harelb@math.cornell.edu (misc.activism.progressive co-moderator)
Subject: F<O>CUS/HEALTH: How U.S. compares... Children/Elderly in Poverty
F<O>CUS/HEALTH: How U.S. compares... Children/Elderly in Poverty
==================================================================
Percentage of children and elderly living in poverty 1984-1987:(3)
==================================================================
=================================================
CHILDREN ELDERLY
COUNTRY IN POVERTY IN POVERTY
=================================================
United States 20.4 10.9
Canada 9.3 2.2
Australia 9.0 4.0
United Kingdom 7.4 5.2
France 4.6 4.5
Netherlands 3.8 3.4
Germany 2.8 2.8
Sweden 1.6 4.3
Source: Timothy M. Smeeding, "U.S. Poverty and Income Security Policy in a
Cross National Perspective, October 1991, Luxembourg, October, 1991,
Luxembourg Income Study, working paper 70.
******************************************************************
=====================================
Of the 19 Western Industrial Nations:
=====================================
Western Industrial Countries having a National Health Insurance plan
providing universal coverage:
Australia YES Sweden YES
Canada YES United Kingdom YES
Denmark YES Austria YES
Finland YES France YES
Ireland YES Switzerland YES
Italy YES Spain YES
Japan YES Belgium YES
New Zealand YES Germany YES
Netherlands YES Norway YES
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Western Industrial Countries NOT having a National Health Insurance
plan providing universal coverage.
United States NO
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
******************************************************************
From page 74 of:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
_We're Number One, Where America Stands -- and Falls -- in the New
World Order_ by Andrew L Shapiro.
New York, May 1992, Vintage Books, a division of Random House.
$10 paperback. ISBN 0-679-73893-2
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
[Transcribed by jhwoodar@well.sf.ca.us (Joe Woodard)]
``America is becoming a land of private greed and public squalor.
This book is an indispensable road map through the wreckage. The
facts it reveals will startle you. They may depress you. But
ideally they'll fire you up to help rebuild this nation.'' | 5 |
3,988 |
Does the phrase "Innocent until proven guilty" have ANY meaning anymore?
--
jmd@handheld.com | 5 |
1,191 |
[SB] Oh yeah, Israel was really ready to "expand its borders" on the holiest day
[SB] of the year (Yom Kippur) when the Arabs attacked in 1973. Oh wait, you
[SB] chose to omit that war...perhaps because it 100% supports the exact
[SB] OPPOSITE to the point you are trying to make? I don't think that it's
[SB] because it was the war that hit Israel the hardest. Also, in 1967 it was
[SB] Egypt, not Israel who kicked out the UN force. In 1948 it was the Arabs
[SB] who refused to accept the existance of Israel BASED ON THE BORDERS SET
[SB] BY THE UNITED NATIONS. In 1956, Egypt closed off the Red Sea to Israeli
[SB] shipping, a clear antagonistic act. And in 1982 the attack was a response
[SB] to years of constant shelling by terrorist organizations from the Golan
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[SB] Heights. Children were being murdered all the time by terrorists and Israel
^^^^^^^^^^^^
[SB] finally retaliated. Nowhere do I see a war that Israel started so that
[SB] the borders could be expanded.
I agree with all you write except that Terrorist orgs. were not shelling
Israel from the Golan Heights in 1982, but rather from Lebanon. The Golan
Heights have been held by Israel since 1967, and therefore the PLO could
not have been shelling Israel from there, unless there is something I am
not aware of.
Tsiel | 5 |
2,374 | <<
<<<
<<<Anybody got Arlen Spectre's address? I want to write to him and thank him
<<<for showing the leadership to demand a Congressional investigation
<<<into the Waco mess.
<<
<<If I had Arlen's address, I would go to his house (Do weasels live
<<in houses or in holes?) and personally tell him what a pathetic idiot
<<he is. Arlen is the personification of the word "jerk". [snip...]
<<
<I'm no fan of Arlen Spectre's, but he did the right thing, and attacking his
<motives in this case is wrong.
Pardon me, here, but I don't trust Spectre's motives here at all. Spectre
was a major part of the Warren Commission, (remember the magic bullet theory?)
and is NOT to be trusted if there's even the tiniest chance the guv'mint may
have done something wrong. If he gets a chance I'm afraid he will satisfy
the public outcry with another whitewash.
<Unfortunately, if some of us get our wish and the BATF is disbanded or folded
<into the FBI, etc., we may end up with a "more efficient" agency than the
<bumbling and competition we have today. Some agents should be fired. Some
<should be prosecuted. But keep them as bumbling as possible -- we retain more
<of our liberties that way.
<
Right on the money here. We should certainly applaud the disbanding of the
BARTF but we must stress the personal responsibility of the goons who set
up the assault on American citizens.
We must NOT count on Spectre, though, to get it done.
RJL
| 5 |
3,932 |
I do not want to convince anyone. This is just USENET, not the real
world. I just read the opinions others have about a subject, and sometimes
I present my opinion. I think that this net is only useful to exchange
ideas. I never wanted nor I want now to convince anyone of anything.
First, and I repeat it, I never said that the idea of Jews having the
right to have a State is racist.
Zionism, as a movement, is more than just that idea. I think that Zionism
in the way it defines who is a Jew, for example, is racist-like.
In the same way I believe that Irish have a right to nationalism but I do
not support the bombing and killing of the IRA, I believe that Jews have
a right to nationalism but I do not support Zionism as it is right now.
That is what makes the basis for Zionist movements. However, I am not
considering just that, but the rest of it.
Which makes an interesting point. People living in a Jewish State have
shown that Jewish culture includes in it Jewish religion but they are
not the same. So, the Jewish people living in the Jewish State have shown
us that there are some problems in a State where 80% of the people is secular
but Judaism is define according to religious standards, or where marriage
is a religious stage, or where the Law of Return defines a Jew according to
a religious standard.
Did those Israelis who do not believe in god and will never do become
non-Jews? Why should they still define then a Jew based on what is a
religious definition?
According to Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, Merriam-Webster Inc,
Publishers, Springfield, Massachusetts, U.S.A., 1986, page 593,
hy-poc-ri-sy: A feigning to be what one is nnot or to believe one does not.
So, saying that one believes in Zionism as a simple matter of people
having the right to nationalism, but disregarding the right of the Palestinian
people to do the same, according to this dictionary, is hypocrisy.
I know what my words mean. I do stand by what I said I believe: Zionism is
a form of racism. Of course, I tend to talk about things as they are and
not as they are defined in a broad sense.
| 5 |
882 |
Not according to reports I have read. It seems that the Somalis think
of our African American Marines in less than complimentary terms, using
gestures that signify a word I refuse to use. Seems that even when you
try to help people, they still insult you.
| 5 |
3,978 |
Very narrow. Very, very narrow. If you'll recall, I was the
nut that advocated the possibility of tactical nukes being militia
weapons in certain situations. How can you possibly define what is a
weapon and what isn't is only the start of this.
And you've just described any civilian reactor because your
definition fails to note what energy is being considered. Reactors
blow with a steam explosion, but the majority of energy still comes
from fission or fusion because that is what heated the coolant. See
what a can of worms this is? Last I heard, Ft. Calhoun station just
north of Omaha, Nebraska wasn't considered a weapon. Given the
sodium-cooled breeder designs on the blocks now, I can easily envision
reactors being household appliances in under twenty years. With the
PRISM design, there is *no* operator input needed on the reactor
itself, and it is not unreasonable to assume the secondary side can
be made equally as automatic in the future. So your definition is
flawed in a few respects already.
Typhoid Mary would likely fit this bill if she sneezed. If
you don't mind extrapolation, any HIV-positive person also fits this
bill if they interact with others in a way that stands any chance of
spreading the virus. Finally, that manure pile I mention below fits
this definition, as does, say, releasing a pet rattlesnake to the wild.
And I can show where any such gas has other uses. For example,
perhaps we would like to rid the hay field of gophers. Calcium Carbide
is a rock that dissolves in water to produce aceteylne gas. It can
be used for welding, in miners lamps, for gassing gophers, or for
making carbide bombs and doing some illicit fishing. Toss some in a
toilet and leave a lighted cigarette on the seat and you'll see that
it can also be a weapon, just like any other flammable substance.
So, now my miners lamps won't work, I can't do any welding, and I
still have those pesky gophers.
The basis for, but I'm sure you see that the problem is not
in writing a law, it is in writing a law that cannot be abused and
extended beyond the point where it does any good.
It is under your proposed law. So is a silage pit if there
is run-off. So are underground fuel tanks.
It meets all the criterion of a weapon. It is an instrument that
can be used for fighting, even though that is not its intended purpose,
and despite there being better weapons around. Given that the aquifers
supply a significant part of the country with drinking water, mass
destruction is rather a given.
It's not that certain weapons aren't something I'd rather not
see a lot of people having. The problem is that it is nearly
impossible to write a law such that it cannot be abused upon some
pretext or another. The looser your definition, the more ripe for
abuse that law is. Furthermore, if you get specific then the old
standby is to insert a clause allowing the list of banned things to
be added to, generally without going through the hassles of another
vote and public reading of the law. Again, ripe for abuse. | 5 |
5,634 | Boston Globe, Wednesday April 21 1993
col. 4 "Bodies found in ruins as FBI defends raid on cult ranch"
col. 5 "Clinton blames Koresh, orders probe of siege"
col. 2 "The children: panws in a horrifying game"
pg. 18, col. 1, Editorial page
"Judgment at Waco"
Now the scientific and political scrutiny of the
horror show in Waco begins, though nothing can
undo the tragedy that might have been prevented
there.
Forensic experts will study the rubble and
ashes of the Branch Davidian compound, where at
least 85 people, including 24 children, perished in
smoke and fire caused by theapocalyptic visions of
a manipulative madman AND A STUNNING LAPSE IN
JUDGMENT BY FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS.
[emphasis added by me]
Investigators will re-create conditions at the
compound and identify accelerants and other fac-
tors fueling the inferno. That is their strong suit.
But the public must question why agents of the
Federal Bureau of Investigation lacked the oper-
ational skill and teh behavioral insight to resolve
the 51-day standoff free of flames and fury.
The loss of life most clearly reflects the demen-
tia of cult leader David Koresh, whose personal
delusiosn are now seared on the public conscious-
ness. His assembly of Davidians had stockpiles of
arms--and had used them. LIttle in the way of
rationality could be expected from Koresh, a self-
confsesed "sinner without equal."
What continues to mystify are th eactions of
federal agents, who bungled the case from the
start. The misadventure began on Feb. 28 when
100 agents of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, To-
bacco and Firearms storemd the compound, intent
on seizing Koresh and a cache of automatic weap-
ons. Four agents and an estimated six cult mem-
bers died inteh ensuing gun battle. Earlier
oppor-tunities to isolate and arrest Koresh outside the
complex had not been adequately explored.
Authorities prepared a siege and resolved that
those deaths would be the last. Fifty-one days into
the siege there was no public outcry to storm the
compound.
It had been correctly perceived that the chil-
dren inside "Rancho Apocalypse" were essentially
hostages. With their lives at stake, there was no
reason for the government to be impatient. The
government's superior firepower, control of water
and utilities and freedom of movement created the
conditions for a belated but bloodless resolution.
Neither Attorney General Janet Reno nor the
FBI has provided a sigle compelling reason for
abandondoning the course of patience.
If intelligence was accurate and Koresh was
growing increasingly violent and bizarre, it is diffi-
cult to see how a tear-gas attack launched by an
M-60 combat vehicle would clear his mind. If re-
ports of escalating child abuse were accurate, they
would have to be weighted against the potential for
eve ngreated hamr.
etc etc tec....
[paragraphs, 2.5 paragraphs deleted]
But some of the responsibility rests with Clinton,
and inexperienced president who did not pay
enough attention to the life-and -death decisions
being made on WAco.
If Reno is to be faulted for anything, ti would
be for her overreliance on the judgment of law en-
forcement officers--a common problem among
prosecutors.
Full investigations into th eWaco tragedy must
be conducted by both the executive and legislative
branches. The first step is to verify how the blaze
started. Though apportioning blame will play a
role, it is of greater importnace to find strategies
to elude the fire next time. | 5 |
5,667 | I don't want to attack anyone's personal opinions and thus have not
included any articles - but it seems to me incredibly ridiculous
and pompous for someone to sit back with the benefit of hindsight
and point fingers at Clinton, Reno, the FBI, or whomever.
First of all, it is a knee-jerk judgement. The facts are quite
muddled at this point and will likely be for quite a while.
Secondly, things do not improve by pointing blame and accusatory
fingers. Pointing fingers is a destructive action. If everyone
sat around pointing fingers all the time, nothing would get done
and nothing would ever get any better. And despite the tragedy,
we can learn something from this - if it is approached in a
constructive manner. Doesn't it seem that working together is
more productive than working against one another?
Thirdly, it seems incredibly hypocritical to place blame given
the benefit of hindsight - something that those who made the
decisions did not have the benefit of. Why not give them the courtesy
of acknowledging that they did the best they could with the
data they had - in a very, very difficult situation. Some
responses have gone so far to suggest that the actions were done
without regard for the lives of the people in the compound - give
me a break.
Be part of the solution - not the problem.
And that's MY opinion - | 5 |
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