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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
understandable by us?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Your intuition, again, we're in the realm of philosophy
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
a little bit.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Well, probably no.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
But again, it depends what you really
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
mean for understanding.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
So I think we don't understand how deep networks work.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
I think we are beginning to have a theory now.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
But in the case of deep networks,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
or even in the case of the simpler kernel machines
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
or linear classifier, we really don't understand
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
the individual units or so.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
But we understand what the computation and the limitations
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
and the properties of it are.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
It's similar to many things.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
What does it mean to understand how a fusion bomb works?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
How many of us understand the basic principle?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And some of us may understand deeper details.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
In that sense, understanding is, as a community,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
as a civilization, can we build another copy of it?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And in that sense, do you think there
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
will need to be some evolutionary component where
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
it runs away from our understanding?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Or do you think it could be engineered from the ground up,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
the same way you go from the transistor to PowerPoint?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
So many years ago, this was actually 40, 41 years ago,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
I wrote a paper with David Marr, who
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
was one of the founding fathers of computer vision,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
computational vision.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
I wrote a paper about levels of understanding,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
which is related to the question we discussed earlier
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
about understanding PowerPoint, understanding transistors,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
and so on.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And in that kind of framework, we
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
had the level of the hardware and the top level
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
of the algorithms.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
We did not have learning.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Recently, I updated adding levels.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And one level I added to those three was learning.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And you can imagine, you could have a good understanding
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
of how you construct a learning machine, like we do.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
But being unable to describe in detail what the learning
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
machines will discover, right?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Now, that would be still a powerful understanding,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
if I can build a learning machine,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
even if I don't understand in detail every time it
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
learns something.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Just like our children, if they start
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
listening to a certain type of music,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
I don't know, Miley Cyrus or something,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
you don't understand why they came
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
to that particular preference.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
But you understand the learning process.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
That's very interesting.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
So on learning for systems to be part of our world,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
it has a certain, one of the challenging things
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
that you've spoken about is learning ethics, learning
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
morals.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And how hard do you think is the problem of, first of all,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
humans understanding our ethics?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
What is the origin on the neural on the low level of ethics?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
What is it at the higher level?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Is it something that's learnable from machines
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
in your intuition?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
I think, yeah, ethics is learnable, very likely.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
I think it's one of these problems where
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
I think understanding the neuroscience of ethics,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
people discuss there is an ethics of neuroscience.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Yeah, yes.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
How a neuroscientist should or should not behave.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Can you think of a neurosurgeon and the ethics
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
rule he has to be or he, she has to be.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
But I'm more interested on the neuroscience of ethics.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
You're blowing my mind right now.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
The neuroscience of ethics is very meta.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Yeah, and I think that would be important to understand also
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
for being able to design machines that
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
are ethical machines in our sense of ethics.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And you think there is something in neuroscience,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
there's patterns, tools in neuroscience
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
that could help us shed some light on ethics?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Or is it mostly on the psychologists of sociology
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
in which higher level?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
No, there is psychology.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
But there is also, in the meantime,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
there is evidence, fMRI, of specific areas of the brain
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
that are involved in certain ethical judgment.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And not only this, you can stimulate those area
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
with magnetic fields and change the ethical decisions.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Yeah, wow.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
So that's work by a colleague of mine, Rebecca Sachs.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And there is other researchers doing similar work.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And I think this is the beginning.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
But ideally, at some point, we'll
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
have an understanding of how this works.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And why it evolved, right?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
The big why question.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Yeah, it must have some purpose.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Yeah, obviously it has some social purposes, probably.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
If neuroscience holds the key to at least illuminate
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