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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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and color and hearing and all the different modules in cortex.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:56:24.640
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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But of course, what consciousness is, consciousness puts it all together into one package, right?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:56:28.160
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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The binding problem, all of that.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:56:32.040
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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And this is really the function because it has relatively few neurons compared to cortex,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:56:33.560
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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but it talks, it receives input from all of them and it projects back to all of them.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:56:38.200
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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And so we're testing that right now.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:56:43.720
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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We've got this beautiful neuronal reconstruction in the mouse called crown of thorns, crown
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:56:45.120
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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of thorns neurons that are in the claustrum that have the most widespread connection of
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:56:50.040
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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any neuron I've ever seen.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:56:54.520
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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They're very, you have individual neurons that sit in the claustrum tiny, but then they
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:56:56.360
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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have this single neuron, they have this huge axonal tree that cover both ipsy and contralateral
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:57:00.280
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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cortex and trying to turn using, you know, fancy tools like optogenetics, trying to turn
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:57:05.480
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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those neurons on or off and study it, what happens in the, in the mouse.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:57:11.000
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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So this thing is perhaps where the parts become the whole.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:57:15.440
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Perhaps it's one of the structures, it's a very good way of putting it, where the individual
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:57:20.520
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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parts turn into the whole of the whole of the conscious experience.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:57:25.440
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Well, with that, thank you very much for being here today.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:57:30.080
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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Thank you very much.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:57:35.400
|
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
|
Thank you very much.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:57:36.400
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
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All right, thank you very much.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:57:37.400
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
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You've studied the human mind, cognition, language, vision, evolution, psychology,
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:00:00.000
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Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
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from child to adult, from the level of individual to the level of our entire civilization.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:00:05.280
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Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
So I feel like I can start with a simple multiple choice question.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:00:11.680
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Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
What is the meaning of life? Is it A. to attain knowledge as Plato said,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:00:16.240
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Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
B. to attain power as Nietzsche said, C. to escape death as Ernest Becker said,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:00:22.400
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Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
D. to propagate our genes as Darwin and others have said,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:00:27.920
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
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E. there is no meaning as the nihilists have said,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:00:33.200
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Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
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F. knowing the meaning of life is beyond our cognitive capabilities as Stephen Pinker said,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:00:37.520
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Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
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based on my interpretation 20 years ago, and G. none of the above.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:00:42.960
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Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
I'd say A. comes closest, but I would amend that to
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:00:48.160
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Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
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C. to attaining not only knowledge but fulfillment more generally, that is life, health, stimulation,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:00:51.200
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
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access to the living cultural and social world.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:01:00.640
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Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
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Now this is our meaning of life. It's not the meaning of life if you were to ask our genes.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:01:06.080
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Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
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Their meaning is to propagate copies of themselves, but that is distinct from the
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:01:12.160
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Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
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meaning that the brain that they lead to sets for itself.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:01:17.680
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Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
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So to you knowledge is a small subset or a large subset?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:01:22.400
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Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
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It's a large subset, but it's not the entirety of human striving because we also want to
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:01:27.840
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Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
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interact with people. We want to experience beauty. We want to experience the richness
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:01:35.200
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Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
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of the natural world, but understanding what makes the universe tick is way up there.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:01:39.600
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Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
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For some of us more than others, certainly for me that's one of the top five.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:01:47.840
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
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So is that a fundamental aspect? Are you just describing your own preference or is this a
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:01:54.560
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
fundamental aspect of human nature is to seek knowledge? In your latest book you talk about
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:02:00.080
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Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
the power, the usefulness of rationality and reason and so on. Is that a fundamental
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:02:05.920
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
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nature of human beings or is it something we should just strive for?
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:02:11.760
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Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
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Both. We're capable of striving for it because it is one of the things that make us what we are,
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:02:17.040
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
homo sapiens, wise men. We are unusual among animals in the degree to which we acquire
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:02:23.920
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
knowledge and use it to survive. We make tools. We strike agreements via language. We extract
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:02:32.320
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
poisons. We predict the behavior of animals. We try to get at the workings of plants.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:02:41.600
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
And when I say we, I don't just mean we in the modern West, but we as a species everywhere,
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:02:47.760
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
which is how we've managed to occupy every niche on the planet, how we've managed to drive other
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:02:52.640
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
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animals to extinction. And the refinement of reason in pursuit of human wellbeing, of health,
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:02:58.160
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
happiness, social richness, cultural richness is our main challenge in the present. That is
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:03:06.480
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
using our intellect, using our knowledge to figure out how the world works, how we work
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:03:14.480
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
in order to make discoveries and strike agreements that make us all better off in the long run.
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:03:19.280
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
Right. And you do that almost undeniably and in a data driven way in your recent book,
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:03:25.200
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
but I'd like to focus on the artificial intelligence aspect of things and not just
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:03:31.840
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
artificial intelligence, but natural intelligence too. So 20 years ago in a book you've written on
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:03:36.400
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
how the mind works, you conjecture again, am I right to interpret things? You can correct me
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:03:41.920
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
if I'm wrong, but you conjecture that human thought in the brain may be a result of a
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:03:49.520
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
massive network of highly interconnected neurons. So from this interconnectivity emerges thought
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:03:54.400
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
compared to artificial neural networks, which we use for machine learning today,
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:04:01.280
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
is there something fundamentally more complex, mysterious, even magical about the biological
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:04:06.160
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
neural networks versus the ones we've been starting to use over the past 60 years and
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:04:12.640
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
have become to success in the past 10? There is something a little bit mysterious
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:04:19.440
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
about the human neural networks, which is that each one of us who is a neural network knows that
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:04:24.720
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
we ourselves are conscious. Conscious not in the sense of registering our surroundings or even
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:04:31.600
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
registering our internal state, but in having subjective first person, present tense experience.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:04:36.960
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
That is when I see red, it's not just different from green, but there's a redness to it that I
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:04:42.720
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
feel. Whether an artificial system would experience that or not, I don't know and I don't think I can
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:04:49.840
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
know. That's why it's mysterious. If we had a perfectly lifelike robot that was behaviorally
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:04:54.960
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
indistinguishable from a human, would we attribute consciousness to it or ought we to attribute
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:05:00.480
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
consciousness to it? And that's something that it's very hard to know. But putting that aside,
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:05:06.800
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
putting aside that largely philosophical question, the question is, is there some difference between
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:05:12.160
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
the human neural network and the ones that we're building in artificial intelligence will mean
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:05:19.040
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
that we're on the current trajectory, not going to reach the point where we've got a lifelike
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https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:05:23.760
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
robot indistinguishable from a human because the way their so called neural networks are organized
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:05:30.000
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
are different from the way ours are organized. I think there's overlap, but I think there are
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:05:35.120
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
some big differences that current neural networks, current so called deep learning systems are in
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:05:39.760
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
reality not all that deep. That is, they are very good at extracting high order statistical
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:05:48.800
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
regularities, but most of the systems don't have a semantic level, a level of actual understanding
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:05:53.840
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
of who did what to whom, why, where, how things work, what causes what else. Do you think that
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:06:00.640
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
kind of thing can emerge as it does? So artificial neural networks are much smaller, the number of
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:06:07.520
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
connections and so on than the current human biological networks, but do you think sort of
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:06:11.840
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
to go to consciousness or to go to this higher level semantic reasoning about things, do you
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:06:18.320
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
think that can emerge with just a larger network with a more richly weirdly interconnected network?
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:06:22.800
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
Separate it in consciousness because consciousness is even a matter of complexity.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:06:29.760
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
A really weird one.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:06:33.280
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
Yeah, you could sensibly ask the question of whether shrimp are conscious, for example,
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:06:34.320
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
they're not terribly complex, but maybe they feel pain. So let's just put that part of it aside.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:06:38.400
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
But I think sheer size of a neural network is not enough to give it structure and knowledge,
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:06:44.400
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
but if it's suitably engineered, then why not? That is, we're neural networks, natural selection
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:06:52.480
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
did a kind of equivalent of engineering of our brains. So I don't think there's anything mysterious
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:06:59.520
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
in the sense that no system made out of silicon could ever do what a human brain can do. I think
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:07:04.880
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
it's possible in principle. Whether it'll ever happen depends not only on how clever we are
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:07:11.760
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
in engineering these systems, but whether we even want to, whether that's even a sensible goal.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:07:17.360
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
That is, you can ask the question, is there any locomotion system that is as good as a human?
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:07:22.240
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
Well, we kind of want to do better than a human ultimately in terms of legged locomotion.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:07:29.920
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
There's no reason that humans should be our benchmark. They're tools that might be better
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:07:35.520
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
in some ways. It may be that we can't duplicate a natural system because at some point it's so much
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:07:39.760
|
Steven Pinker: AI in the Age of Reason | Lex Fridman Podcast #3
|
cheaper to use a natural system that we're not going to invest more brainpower and resources.
|
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0003-large.html#00:07:49.760
|
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