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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
he talks about this very vividly.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:50:30.080
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
And finally, the dominant machine intelligence organism that survived were gigantic clouds
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:50:32.200
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
of little hexagonal universal cellular automata.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:50:39.200
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
This was written in the 60s, so typically they're all lying on the ground individual
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
by themselves, but in times of crisis, they can communicate, they assemble into gigantic
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:50:46.560
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
nets into clouds of trillions of these particles and then they become hyper intelligent and
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
they can beat anything that humans can throw at it.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:50:55.840
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
It's very beautiful and compelling where you have an intelligence where finally the humans
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
leave the planet, they're simply unable to understand and comprehend this creature.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
They can say, well, either we can nuke the entire planet and destroy it or we just have
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
to leave because fundamentally it's an alien, it's so alien from us and our ideas that we
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
cannot communicate with them.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Yeah, actually in conversation, so you're talking to us, Steven Wolf from Brought Up
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
is that there could be ideas that you already have these artificial general intelligence
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
like super smart or maybe conscious beings in the cellular automata, we just don't know
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
how to talk to them.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So it's the language of communication, but you don't know what to do with it.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So that's one sort of view is consciousness is only something you can measure.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So it's not conscious if you can't measure it.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So you're making an ontological and an epistemic statement.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
One is it's just like seeing the multiverses, that might be true, but I can't communicate
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
with them.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
I can't have any knowledge of them.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
That's an epistemic argument.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Right?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So those are two different things.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So it may well be possible.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Look, in another case that's happening right now, people are building these mini organoids.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Do you know what this is?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So you can take stem cells from under your arm, put it in a dish, add four transcription
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
factors and then you can induce them to grow into large, well, large, they're a few millimeters.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
They're like a half a million neurons that look like nerve cells in a dish called mini
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
organoids at Harvard, at Stanford, everywhere they're building them.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
It may well be possible that they're beginning to feel like something, but we can't really
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
communicate with them right now.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So people are beginning to think about the ethics of this.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So yes, he may be perfectly right, but it's one question, are they conscious or not?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
It's a totally separate question.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
How would I know?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Those are two different things.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
If you could give advice to a young researcher, sort of dreaming of understanding or creating
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
human level intelligence or consciousness, what would you say?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Just follow your dreams.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Read widely.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
No, I mean, I suppose with discipline, what is the pursuit that they should take on?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Is it neuroscience?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Is it computational cognitive science?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Is it philosophy?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Is it computer science or robotics?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
No, in a sense that, okay, so the only known system that have high level of intelligence
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
is homo sapiens.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So if you wanted to build it, it's probably good to continue to study closely what humans
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
do.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So cognitive neuroscience, you know, somewhere between cognitive neuroscience on the one hand
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
and some philosophy of mind and then AI, AI computer science.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
You can look at all the original ideas in your network, they all came from neuroscience,
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
right?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Reinforce whether it's Snarky, Minsky building is Snarky or whether it's, you know, the early
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Hubel and Wiesel experiments at Harvard that then gave rise to networks and then multi
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
layer networks.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So it may well be possible, in fact, some people argue that to make the next big step
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:53:52.920
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
in AI once we realize the limits of deep convolutional networks, they can do certain things, but
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
they can't really understand.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
They don't, they can't really, I can't really show them one image.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
I can show you a single image of somebody, a pickpocket who steals a wallet from a purse.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0002-large.html#00:54:08.800
Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
You immediately know that's a pickpocket.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Now computer system would just say, well, it's a man, it's a woman, it's a purse, right?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Unless you train this machine on showing it a hundred thousand pickpockets, right?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So it doesn't have this easy understanding that you have, right?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So some people make the argument in order to go to the next step or you really want
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
to build machines that understand in a way you and I, we have to go to psychology.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
We need to understand how we do it and how our brains enable us to do it.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
And so therefore being on the cusp, it's also so exciting to try to understand better our
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
nature and then to build, to take some of those inside and build them.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
So I think the most exciting thing is somewhere in the interface between cognitive science,
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
neuroscience, AI, computer science and philosophy of mind.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Beautiful.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Yeah.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
I'd say if there is from the machine learning, from our, from the computer science, computer
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
vision perspective, many of the researchers kind of ignore the way the human brain works
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
or even psychology or literature or studying the brain, I would hope Josh Tenenbaum talks
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
about bringing that in more and more.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
And that's, yeah, so you've worked on some amazing stuff throughout your life.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
What's the thing that you're really excited about?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
What's the mystery that you would love to uncover in the near term beyond, beyond all
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
the mysteries that you're already surrounded by?
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
Well, so there's a structure called the claustrum.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
This is a structure, it's underneath our cortex, it's yay big.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
You have one on the left, on the right, underneath this, underneath the insula, it's very thin,
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
it's like one millimeter, it's embedded in, in wiring, in white matter, so it's very difficult
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
to image.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
And it has, it has connection to every cortical region.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
And Francis Crick, the last paper he ever wrote, he dictated corrections the day he
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
died in hospital on this paper.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
You know, we hypothesize, well, because it has this unique anatomy, it gets input from
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
every cortical area and projects back to every, every cortical area.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
That the function of this structure is similar, it's just a metaphor to the role of a conductor
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
in a symphony orchestra.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
You have all the different cortical players.
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Christof Koch: Consciousness | Lex Fridman Podcast #2
You have some that do motion, some that do theory of mind, some that infer social interaction
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