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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
it's a tough decision to make.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0320-large.html#01:51:45.760
Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
Yeah. Well, I think it's, uh, both for journalists and historians, um, the challenge is not to
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0320-large.html#01:51:47.120
Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
be too close to your subject, right? Um, and you know, not to be, um, overly influenced
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0320-large.html#01:51:52.960
Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
and used by them, right? You know, when you're talking to a living subject, which historians
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0320-large.html#01:51:59.880
Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
do, you know, um, to, um, you know, it's, it's a matter of making sure that you triangulate
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
their story with, with the rest of the record, right? Um, uh, and that may paint a different
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
picture of, of the person then, um, and will prevent you as a journalist or a historian
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
from kind of, you know, just telling someone else's story. And so, and historians also
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
have the benefit of going back, you know, 30, 40 years and finding all the other stories
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
and figuring out, you know, uh, playing two truths and a lie, you know, which parts are,
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
you know, which parts are accurate, which are, which are not. And journalists do that
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
work in a day to day basis, but historians, um, you know, we get a little more time to
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
think about what we're doing.
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
Well, I, I personally also think it's deeply disrespectful to the populace, to people,
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
to um, censor and ignore a person that's supported by a very large number of people. Like that
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0320-large.html#01:52:57.760
Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
you owe, I personally feel like you owe the citizens of this country a deep, uh, empathy
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
and understanding of the leaders they support, even if you disagree with what they say. I
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0320-large.html#01:53:16.360
Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
mean, that's the, the, to me, I'm much more worried about the resentment of the censorship,
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
um, that it's to having a good conversation with Donald Trump is, is ultimately valuable.
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
Uh, because he, I think, uh, especially in this case, I agree with you that Donald Trump
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0320-large.html#01:53:34.880
Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
is not a singular person. He is a, he represents a set of feelings that a large number of people
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
have and whatever those feelings are, you can try to figure out by talking to people,
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
but also talking to the, the, the, the man and then seeing the interplay there, what
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
does this really represent in this period in history, in this slice of the world? Um,
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
yeah, ultimately understanding, I think leads to, uh, compassion and love and unity, which
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
is how this whole thing progresses. The tension between the different sides is useful to,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0320-large.html#01:54:11.000
Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
um, have a good conversation, but ultimately coming up with the right answer and progressing
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
towards that answer is, is how you make progress. Do you think a pure democracy can work? So
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
we have this representative of democracy with these contentious elections and so on. When
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
we start a civilization on Mars, which becomes more and more realistic technologically, we
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
can have a more direct access to be able to vote on issues and vote for ideas. Do you
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
think it can work? I don't think we have to go to Mars, uh, to do it. Right. Um, uh, I
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0320-large.html#01:54:47.200
Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
think, um, the answer is not, you know, to flip a switch and turn on something called
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0320-large.html#01:54:53.200
Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
pure democracy. Um, uh, when people are not ready for it, when their, uh, incentive structures
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
are not sort of structured for it, but you can, um, you know, experiment with more democratic
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
forms of governance one after another, right? Whether it's, um, you know, sort of experimenting
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
with, um, technology to find new ways of sort of, of getting, uh, greater rates of participation
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
in democracy. Um, I think that we see some experiments in, um, sort of more complicated
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
systems of voting, um, that in fact might actually be more reflective of people's choices
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
than simply picking one candidate, right? Sort of ranked choice voting or, uh, runoffs,
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
other kinds of things. Um, you know, I think that we can think more, uh, creatively about
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
something like participatory budgeting, right? In which, um, you know, uh, we put all this
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
money into the government. Um, and then, um, you know, we, we, um, you know, should, as
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
a, as a people, there are more democratic ways of, of sort of, of how we spend it. Um,
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
and I think the most urgent in some level is a more, uh, democratic form of foreign
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
policymaking, right? That foreign policymaking, decision making, um, uh, about the military,
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
about foreign policy, um, is, is very ways insulated from, from popular participation,
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
um, in, in modern American history. Um, and I think, you know, there, uh, technology is
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
not the, the going to solve this. Um, you know, it's a combination of technology and,
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
and human creativity, but I think, um, you know, I think we can start heading that direction.
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
Whether we get there before we get to Mars, I don't, I don't know.
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
What interesting lessons and thoughts, if you look at the fundamentals of the history
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
of American elections, do you hope to reveal when you try to teach the class? And, um,
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
how would those fundamentals be met by the, by the students that received that wisdom?
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
So what do you think about this dance? It's such an interesting idea. And I hope you do
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
go through with this kind of idea is look at the history while the next one is happening.
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
Yes. I think, you know, it's worth remembering, right? That the students who are typical American
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
student who's in college right now, right? Has lived their entire life after, uh, the
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
election of 2000 and Bush V Gore, right? Um, and after nine 11 probably. And yeah, absolutely.
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
Yes. After all of, after all of these things. Right. And, and, um, so on the one hand they
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
take partisanship and contentious elections for granted. Um, they don't, I think share,
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
um, you know, sort of some vision that things were, you know, things used to be different,
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
right? They don't remember a world that had like lots of moderate Democrats and liberal
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
Republicans and, um, you know, sort of running around in it. Um, but, um, you know, so in
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
some ways it's a way of, of looking back into the past to find other ways of, of, of organizing
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
our politics. Uh, it's also a way of, of reassuring students that we have been through contentious
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
and even, um, sort of violent elections before in our history. Um, and you know, that people
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
have defended the right to vote, right? People have risked their lives to vote. Um, uh, you
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
know, I think they will, they will understand that, that as well.
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
And maybe knowledge of history here can help deescalate the emotions you might feel about
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
one candidate or another. And I, from a place of calmness, you can more easily arrive at
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
wisdom.
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
Uh, that, that's my hope. Um, yeah.
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
Just as a brief aside, you, brief aside, but nevertheless, uh, you wrote the book Bound
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0320-large.html#01:58:57.200
Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
by War that describes a century of war in the Pacific. So looking at this slice of geography
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
and power, uh, so most crucially through the partnership between the United States and
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
the Philippines, can you tell us some aspect of the story that is often perhaps not considered
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
when you start to look more at the geopolitics of Europe and Soviet Union and the United
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
States? What, how did the, the war in, in the Pacific define the 20th century?
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
Yeah, I came to this book Bound by War, um, from a sense that, um, that our stories were
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0320-large.html#01:59:37.920
Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
too lopsided, um, toward, toward Europe, right? That American history, when viewed from the
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
Pacific, um, specifically in the 20th century, um, helps us understand American power, um,
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
in some new ways, right? Uh, not only American, uh, projection of power into Asia, right?
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
But also the ways in which American power affected, uh, people in Asia, right? Um, either
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
as, uh, you know, in places like the Philippines where the United States, uh, had a colony
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
for almost 50 years or Asian Americans, people who had migrated over their descendants in
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
the United States. And those linkages, uh, between the United States and Asia, uh, particularly,
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
uh, the U S Philippine connection, I think were something that needed to be traced across
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
the 20th century. Cause it's a way kind of a new way of seeing American power, you know,
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
from, from a different angle, uh, you see it in, in that way.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0320-large.html#02:00:35.680
Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
There's some aspect that define America from, from when you take the perspective of the
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0320-large.html#02:00:39.480
Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
Pacific, what, what military conflict and, and the asymmetry of power there, right?
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
So I start in, uh, in 1898, um, you know, with the U S invasion of the Philippines,
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
um, uh, it's a conquest and annexation. Uh, and I think in many ways, this is a defining
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
conflict of the 20th century. That's often completely overlooked or described, uh, I
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
think incorrectly as merely a war with Spain, right? That the war in the Philippines, um,
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
is our, uh, our first extended overseas conflict, our first conflict, um, in what would come
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
to be called the developing world or third world. Uh, it's a form of, of counter insurgency.
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
Um, you know, this is the U S army sort of learning lessons that are then repeated again
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Christopher Capozzola: World War I, Ideology, Propaganda, and Politics | Lex Fridman Podcast #320
in the second world war in Korea, Vietnam, and, and even after 9 11.
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