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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
which is, you know, a pair of kings,
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
but call with a pair of fours and an ace kicker.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
So it's essentially telling you
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
that you should fold this hand
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
that is much better than this.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
So it begs the question, why?
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
Because what the solvers do is they use the information
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
of your own cards to formulate all the possible hands
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
your opponent can have.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
So if your opponent is,
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
so basically if you had the king, queen,
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
you know, it may say, for lack of a better nerdy term,
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
it blocks potential bluffing hands
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
that your opponent can have.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
So let's say if your opponent would bluff with queen, jack,
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
but you have a queen.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
So there are less combinations of queen, jack.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
So it will find a better bluff catcher, if you will.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
So that's what's really not intuitive to poker players.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
Poker players usually think like,
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
well, this, my hand is pretty good, so I got a call,
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
but that's not how a solver would think.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
Solver uses, you know, common matrix and, you know.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
And sometimes it's tough to get the good why answers
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
you just did for why a solver thinks something is better,
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
or maybe in poker it's a little bit easier,
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
but in the case of go and chess, it's not always obvious why,
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
because it's not gonna explain stuff to you.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
I think one of the best ways to learn poker
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
is when you see a solver output
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
and it tells you one of these things, try to figure out why.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
Why does this solver do this?
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
Why does it want you to call with this and fold this?
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
And try to think about it on a deeper level.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
And you go, aha, probably because this card
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
that I have here, you know, changes the range
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
of my opponent's, you know, potential.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
I'd love to get your opinion
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
on your relationship with solvers.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
Because for example, Magnus doesn't use them.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
His team uses them.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
Cause he feels like he's going to rely on it too much.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
And you can't use it when you're playing.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
What you really want is to build up
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
an extremely strong intuition without the help of a solver.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
Is there some aspect of that that rings true to you?
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
Absolutely.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
I totally can relate to what Magnus is saying.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
First and foremost, because when solvers
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
was first introduced, I didn't come from that world.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
I was so intimidated because I didn't know how to use it.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
I don't know how to do an input.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
So I had two guys, one guy's a data scientist
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
and, you know, another guy's like a poker savant,
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
if you will, and they coached me and they did it.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
So today, if I was in a tough spot, you know,
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
and I'm like, I don't know, what would a solver do?
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
I will send them the hand and they'll run the solve for me.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
And then sort of give me the parameters of what to do.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
When I was playing, you know,
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
regularly using solvers with them,
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
we were spending six to eight hours a day
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
going over all these solves.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
So intuitively I started to think and learn
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
about what the solver would want,
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
but I sort of understand where Magnus is coming from
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
in that you don't want to become a slave to the sim,
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
as I say, right?
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
There's one kid I know, I joked with him,
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
his name is Landon Tice.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
And, you know, he made a play that the sim, you know,
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
would say, this is a good play.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
But I'm like, it's a good play, you know,
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
in a simulated world against the robot.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
It's not in practice against the human, right?
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
You don't need to be doing that.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
So if you become a slave to the sim
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
and always do what the sim says,
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
you're handcuffed to a certain degree.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
Is there some, at the highest level plays,
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
there's still a role for feel and intuition?
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
Absolutely.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
If you're not doing that,
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
cause here's the thing, right?
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
No human being plays perfectly balanced
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
in game three optimal like a robot would.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
They're not, right?
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
So there are opportunities there to take advantage
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
of the things that they do that are slightly too aggressive
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
or less aggressive.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
You know, for example,
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
say most human beings don't bluff enough in a certain spot.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
So you don't have to call with the correct range of hands.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
You don't have to,
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
because they're not bluffing at the optimal frequency.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
So you don't have to call at the optimal frequency.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
You'd be making this mistake, frankly, if you did.
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
What's the difference between in person and online play,
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
given that context?
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Daniel Negreanu: Poker | Lex Fridman Podcast #324
Yeah, well, online poker and live poker,
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