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And when I got married, I thought about it. You know, it just seemed like something that, you know, I kind of wish hadn't been said, in a way, despite the fact that it was, you know, supposed to be comforting. And so that's all.	and when i got married. i thought about it you know it just seemed like something that you know i kind of wish hadn't been said in a. way despite the fact that. it was you know supposed to be comforting and so that's	And when I got married I thought about it You know it just seemed like something that you know; I kind. of wish hadn't been said. in a way despite. the fact, that it was you know supposed to be comforting And so that's,	and when i got married, i thought about it. you know, it just seemed like something that, you know, i kind of wish hadn't been said, in a way, despite the fact that it was, you know, supposed to be comforting. and so that's all.
And just - I'm sure that there were the rituals that we use to accompany death, funerals and memorials and testimony and prayers, but nevertheless that seems inadequate somehow.	and just - i'm sure that there were the rituals that we use to, accompany death funerals and memorials, and testimony and prayers, but nevertheless that seems inadequate	And just - I'm sure that there were the rituals that we. use to accompany death funerals and memorials, and testimony and prayers but nevertheless that seems inadequate	and just - i'm sure that there were the rituals that we use to accompany death, funerals and memorials and testimony and prayers, but nevertheless that seems inadequate somehow.
Yes, and I think that sometimes people feel as if the real, authentic conversation in anticipation of these very sad losses, these deeply grieving losses, people want to avoid those rather than recognize that it's important to move through those for both the person who's leaving and the person who is being left behind ...	yes. and i think that sometimes people feel as if the real authentic conversation in anticipation of these very sad losses these deeply grieving. losses people want to avoid those rather than recognize that. it's important to move; through, those for both the person who's leaving and the person who is being left behind...	Yes and I think that sometimes people. feel as if the real authentic conversation in anticipation of these very; sad losses these deeply grieving losses people want to avoid those rather than recognize that it's important to move; through those, for both, the person. who's leaving and the person who is being left behin...	yes, and i think that sometimes people feel as if the real, authentic conversation in anticipation of these very sad losses, these deeply grieving losses, people want to avoid those rather than recognize that it's important to move through those for both the person who's leaving and the person who is being left behind ...
Is that - are we getting close to the...?	is that - are we getting close to	Is that - are. we getting close to	is that - are we getting close to the...?
Yeah, that's exactly my point. She definitely said it better than, you know, I could have. I think it's probably the emotional, you know, side of it keeps me from saying it how maybe I should.	yeah that's exactly my point she, definitely said it better than you know i could have i think. it's probably the emotional. you know side of it keeps me from saying it how maybe i	Yeah that's, exactly my point She definitely said it better than you know I, could have, I. think it's probably the emotional you know, side of. it keeps me from, saying it how, maybe I	yeah, that's exactly my point. she definitely said it better than, you know, i could have. i think it's probably the emotional, you know, side of it keeps me from saying it how maybe i should.
It was great to be here. Thank you.	it was great to be here thank.	It was great to be here Thank	it was great to be here. thank you.
(Singing) It's been a long, long, long time coming, but I know change gonna come.	(singing) it's been, a long long long. time coming but i know change gonna	(Singing) It's been a long long long, time coming but I know change gonna	(singing) it's been a long, long, long time coming, but i know change gonna come.
It's interesting, in your book, that same anthropologist we were talking about before, her father dies suddenly, and she then says yes, there are these awful feelings of pain and - but that she remembers him when she looks in the mirror and sees him in her face, she sees him in the face of her child.	it's interesting in your book, that same anthropologist we were talking, about before her father dies suddenly and she then. says yes there are, these awful feelings of pain and. - but that she remembers him when she looks in the mirror and sees him in her face she sees him in the, face of her	It's interesting in your book that same; anthropologist we were talking about before her father dies suddenly and she then. says yes there, are these; awful; feelings of pain and - but. that she. remembers him. when she looks in. the mirror and sees him in her face she sees him in the face of her	it's interesting, in your book, that same anthropologist we were talking about before, her father dies suddenly, and she then says yes, there are these awful feelings of pain and - but that she remembers him when she looks in the mirror and sees him in her face, she sees him in the face of her child.
Yes, I think that one of the things that I wanted to say earlier is that there is something obviously within each of after our parents die that the parent survives and is in there. I remember my father was a sociologist, as well, and a professor. And the older I get, as I teach, I stand up and teach, and he is more in ...	yes i think. that one of the things that i wanted to say earlier is that there is something obviously within each of after our parents die that, the parent survives and is in there i remember my father was a sociologist as well and a professor and the older i get as i, teach i stand up and teach and he is more in me th...	Yes I think that one of. the things that I wanted to say earlier is that there is something, obviously within each of after our parents die that the parent survives. and is in there I remember, my father was a sociologist as well and a professor And the older I get as I teach I stand up and teach and he is more, in me ...	yes, i think that one of the things that i wanted to say earlier is that there is something obviously within each of after our parents die that the parent survives and is in there. i remember my father was a sociologist, as well, and a professor. and the older i get, as i teach, i stand up and teach, and he is more in ...
My hand gestures, my smile, this is all my father. So he lives with me and within me always.	my hand gestures, my smile this is all my father. so he lives with me and within me	My hand gestures my smile this is all my father So he lives with, me and within me	my hand gestures, my smile, this is all my father. so he lives with me and within me always.
Samantha, thanks very much for the call.	samantha thanks very, much for the	Samantha thanks very much for the	samantha, thanks very much for the call.
Thank you.	thank	Thank	thank you.
Here's an email that's from John(ph) in University of Florida: Saying goodbye is a major for young adults with chronic health conditions and the pediatricians who care for them. Young adults need to leave the pediatrics and move to adult care because of their changing needs and the limited capacity of children's hospit...	here's an email that's from john(ph) in university of florida: saying goodbye is a major for young adults with chronic health conditions and the pediatricians who care for them young adults need to leave the pediatrics and move to adult care because. of. their changing needs and the limited capacity of children's hospi...	Here's an email that's from. John(ph) in University of Florida: Saying goodbye is a. major for young adults with chronic. health conditions and the pediatricians who care for them Young adults need to leave the pediatrics and, move to adult care because of their changing needs and; the. limited capacity of. children's,...	here's an email that's from john(ph) in university of florida: saying goodbye is a major for young adults with chronic health conditions and the pediatricians who care for them. young adults need to leave the pediatrics and move to adult care because of their changing needs and the limited capacity of children's hospit...
That's interesting. That's not something I've studied or known a lot about, but I don't think that doctors in general, even geriatric doctors, as I've heard, necessarily are well-trained in the art of creating the ritual exits for people or helping people with that passage and with that transition.	that's interesting that's not something i've studied or known a, lot about but i don't think that doctors in general even geriatric doctors as i've heard necessarily are well-trained in the art of. creating the ritual exits for people or helping people, with that passage and with that	That's interesting That's not something I've studied or known a lot about but I don't think that doctors in general even geriatric doctors as I've heard necessarily are well-trained in the art of creating the ritual exits for people or helping people with that passage and with that	that's interesting. that's not something i've studied or known a lot about, but i don't think that doctors in general, even geriatric doctors, as i've heard, necessarily are well-trained in the art of creating the ritual exits for people or helping people with that passage and with that transition.
I grew to feel as if it was so important that professionals of all varieties working with folks, going through major transitions, began to learn how to create the rituals that would be helpful, the rites that would be helpful.In the book I talk about a psychotherapist who is working with her patients, and what she's he...	i grew to feel as if it was so important that professionals of all varieties working with folks going through major transitions began to learn how to create the rituals; that would. be helpful the rites that would. be helpful.in the book, i talk about a psychotherapist. who is working with her patients and what she's h...	I grew to feel as if it was so important that professionals of all varieties working with folks going, through major transitions began to learn. how, to create the rituals that would. be helpful the rites that would be helpful.In the book I talk, about a psychotherapist who is working with her patients and what, she's ...	i grew to feel as if it was so important that professionals of all varieties working with folks, going through major transitions, began to learn how to create the rituals that would be helpful, the rites that would be helpful.in the book i talk about a psychotherapist who is working with her patients, and what she's he...
Mostly young people.	mostly young	Mostly. young	mostly young people.
Many of them young people. And looking - helping them say goodbye or exit relationships that are very difficult for them or experiences of trauma or an abuse. But she's also at the same time trying to figure out how to terminate her relationship with them. The psychotherapist language is termination.	many of them young people and looking. - helping them say goodbye, or exit relationships that are very difficult for them or experiences of trauma or an abuse but she's also at the same time trying to figure out how to terminate her relationship with them the psychotherapist, language is	Many of them young people And looking - helping them say. goodbye or exit relationships that are very difficult for them or experiences of trauma or an abuse But she's also, at the same time trying to figure out how to terminate her relationship with them The psychotherapist language is	many of them young people. and looking - helping them say goodbye or exit relationships that are very difficult for them or experiences of trauma or an abuse. but she's also at the same time trying to figure out how to terminate her relationship with them. the psychotherapist language is termination.
(LAUGHTER)			(laughter)
I wish they could pick better words.	i wish they could pick better	I wish they could pick better	i wish they could pick better words.
And I say in the book I wish they could pick better words, right.	and; i say in the; book i; wish they could pick better words	And I say in the book I wish they could pick better words	and i say in the book i wish they could pick better words, right.
Here's an email from Elizabeth(ph) in Oklahoma City: I'm a psychotherapist. Closure is always a part of my thought process when establishing a therapeutic relationship. My personal story of goodbye involves my mother, who suffered a gradual cognitive decline over the course of 20 years. By the time I realized I needed ...	here's an email from elizabeth(ph) in oklahoma city: i'm a psychotherapist closure is always a part. of my thought process when establishing a, therapeutic relationship my personal story of goodbye involves my mother who suffered a gradual cognitive. decline over the course of 20 years by the time, i realized i needed ...	Here's an email from Elizabeth(ph) in Oklahoma City: I'm a psychotherapist Closure is always a part of my thought process when, establishing a therapeutic relationship My personal story of goodbye involves my mother who suffered a gradual cognitive decline over the course of 20 years By the time I realized I needed to....	here's an email from elizabeth(ph) in oklahoma city: i'm a psychotherapist. closure is always a part of my thought process when establishing a therapeutic relationship. my personal story of goodbye involves my mother, who suffered a gradual cognitive decline over the course of 20 years. by the time i realized i needed ...
Yes, I think that's not an unusual sentiment, and she's expressed it beautifully.	yes i think that's not an unusual sentiment and she's expressed it	Yes, I think that's not an unusual sentiment and she's expressed it	yes, i think that's not an unusual sentiment, and she's expressed it beautifully.
There were also, secondhand, you described the story of an oncologist, and you would think cancer doctors would be among those who would be most practiced in this, since most of their patients are going to die in their care.	there were also secondhand you described the story of an oncologist and you. would think cancer doctors would be among those who would be. most practiced in this since most of their patients are going to die in their	There were also secondhand you described the story, of an oncologist and you would think cancer doctors would be among those who would be most practiced in this since most of their patients are going to die in their	there were also, secondhand, you described the story of an oncologist, and you would think cancer doctors would be among those who would be most practiced in this, since most of their patients are going to die in their care.
Right, and he's very, very interesting. He treats patients with a rare form of cancer, and so most of these patients will die. And rather than sort of creating these professional boundaries, this kind of distance so he won't feel the pain and won't feel the loss, he does just the opposite: He creates relationships of t...	right and, he's very very interesting he treats patients with a rare form of cancer and so most of these patients will die, and rather. than sort of creating, these professional boundaries this kind of. distance so he, won't feel the pain and. won't feel the loss he does just the opposite: he creates relationships of t...	Right and he's very. very interesting He treats patients with a rare form of cancer, and so most of these patients will die. And rather than sort. of, creating these professional boundaries this kind of distance so he won't. feel the pain and won't feel the loss he does just the opposite: He creates relationships of tr...	right, and he's very, very interesting. he treats patients with a rare form of cancer, and so most of these patients will die. and rather than sort of creating these professional boundaries, this kind of distance so he won't feel the pain and won't feel the loss, he does just the opposite: he creates relationships of t...
He tries to do for them as they are dying what they need to have done. And he accompanies them to the end, as witness to this experience, and it is through the warmth and depth of this relationship that he is able to say a good goodbye.	he tries to do for, them, as they are dying what they need to have done and he accompanies them to the end as witness to this experience and it is through the warmth and depth of this relationship; that he is able to say a good	He tries to do for them as they are dying what they need to have done And he accompanies them to the. end as witness to this experience and. it is through the warmth and depth of this. relationship that he is. able to say a good	he tries to do for them as they are dying what they need to have done. and he accompanies them to the end, as witness to this experience, and it is through the warmth and depth of this relationship that he is able to say a good goodbye.
Let's go next to - this is Doug(ph), Doug with us from Leavenworth in Kansas.	let's go next to. - this is, doug(ph), doug with us from leavenworth in	Let's go next. to - this is. Doug(ph), Doug. with us from Leavenworth in	let's go next to - this is doug(ph), doug with us from leavenworth in kansas.
Good afternoon, thanks for having me on. I heard the concept mentioned several times, and that's what prompted my call, of ritualizing goodbyes. I'm in the military, and I've been in the military for 14 years. I've commanded three different organizations in the United States Army, and I believe the military itself does...	good, afternoon thanks for having me on i heard the concept mentioned several times and that's what prompted my call of ritualizing; goodbyes i'm in the military and i've been in the military for 14 years i've commanded three different organizations in the united states army and i believe the military itself does. a fa...	Good afternoon thanks for having me; on I heard the concept mentioned several times and that's what prompted my call. of ritualizing goodbyes I'm in the military and I've been in the military for 14 years I've commanded three different organizations in the United States Army and I believe, the military itself does a fa...	good afternoon, thanks for having me on. i heard the concept mentioned several times, and that's what prompted my call, of ritualizing goodbyes. i'm in the military, and i've been in the military for 14 years. i've commanded three different organizations in the united states army, and i believe the military itself does...
But in particular what I was commenting on or would like to comment on is saying goodbye in your professional career when you leave an organization. There's always what we have, you know, changes of command or changes of responsibility, but some of those rituals go back hundreds of years.	but in particular what i was commenting on or would like, to comment on is. saying goodbye in your professional career when you leave an organization. there's always what we have you know changes of command or changes of responsibility. but some of those. rituals go back hundreds of	But in particular what I was commenting on or would like to comment on is saying goodbye in your professional career when you leave an organization There's always what we have you know, changes of command or changes. of. responsibility but some of those rituals go. back hundreds of	but in particular what i was commenting on or would like to comment on is saying goodbye in your professional career when you leave an organization. there's always what we have, you know, changes of command or changes of responsibility, but some of those rituals go back hundreds of years.
It's very formal, and the entire organization gets to say goodbye. It's OK to get emotional and discuss the grief of giving up command but also the elation at having the responsibility kind of lifted off your shoulders.	it's very formal and the entire organization gets to say goodbye. it's. ok to get emotional and discuss the grief of giving up command but also the elation at having the responsibility kind of lifted off. your	It's very formal and the entire organization gets to say goodbye, It's OK to get emotional and discuss. the grief of giving up, command but also the, elation at having the responsibility kind of lifted off your	it's very formal, and the entire organization gets to say goodbye. it's ok to get emotional and discuss the grief of giving up command but also the elation at having the responsibility kind of lifted off your shoulders.
And more than most organizations, the military is accustomed to such things and understands that they will be happening with some regularity.	and more than most organizations the military is accustomed to such things and understands that they will be happening with some	And, more than most organizations the military is accustomed to such things and understands that they, will be, happening with some	and more than most organizations, the military is accustomed to such things and understands that they will be happening with some regularity.
They do, and they understand the importance and how the individuals in the organization value that ritual and the value that they place on doing it correctly, making sure that everyone gets their chance under the sun, so to say.	they do and they understand the importance and how the individuals in the organization value that ritual and the. value that they place on doing it correctly making sure that everyone gets their chance under; the sun, so to	They do and they understand the importance and how the individuals, in the organization value that ritual and the value that they place on doing it correctly. making. sure that everyone gets their chance under the, sun so to	they do, and they understand the importance and how the individuals in the organization value that ritual and the value that they place on doing it correctly, making sure that everyone gets their chance under the sun, so to say.
I think that's a lovely example, I mean, that rituals and ceremonies allow again for this complex of feelings, as you say of elation and of grief, of joy and of pain. And I think that that's one of the things that you're describing. Another thing I think is because there's something about the military, obviously, that ...	i think that's a lovely example i, mean that rituals and ceremonies allow. again; for this complex of feelings as you say of elation and of grief of joy and of pain and i think that that's one of the things that you're describing; another thing i think is because there's something about the military obviously that know...	I think that's a lovely example I mean that rituals and ceremonies allow again for this complex of, feelings as, you say of, elation and of grief of joy and of pain And I think that that's one of the things that you're describing Another thing I think is because there's something about the military obviously that knows...	i think that's a lovely example, i mean, that rituals and ceremonies allow again for this complex of feelings, as you say of elation and of grief, of joy and of pain. and i think that that's one of the things that you're describing. another thing i think is because there's something about the military, obviously, that ...
Doug, even given that, I am sure you know officers and enlisted who have left the military and yet, well, even despite the rituals, as satisfying as they may be, well, there's grief.	doug even given that i am sure you know officers. and enlisted who have left the military and yet well even despite the rituals as satisfying as they may be well there's	Doug. even. given that I am sure you know officers and enlisted who. have left the military and yet well even despite the rituals as satisfying as they may be well there's	doug, even given that, i am sure you know officers and enlisted who have left the military and yet, well, even despite the rituals, as satisfying as they may be, well, there's grief.
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. You know, people leave, and they say, well, the grass is always greener on the other side, and then the next thing you know, a year or six months from now, they're saying that they miss it themselves. They miss the camaraderie. They miss the ritual. So, yeah, absolutely. You're correct.	oh absolutely absolutely you know people leave and they say, well the grass is always greener on the other side and then the next thing you know a year or six months from now they're saying that they miss it themselves they miss the camaraderie they miss the ritual so, yeah absolutely you're	Oh absolutely absolutely You know people leave and they say well the grass is always greener on the; other side, and; then the next thing you know a year or six months from now they're saying that they miss it themselves They miss the. camaraderie They miss the ritual So yeah absolutely You're	oh, absolutely, absolutely. you know, people leave, and they say, well, the grass is always greener on the other side, and then the next thing you know, a year or six months from now, they're saying that they miss it themselves. they miss the camaraderie. they miss the ritual. so, yeah, absolutely. you're correct.
Yeah. They miss the community, the sense of...	yeah they miss the community the sense	Yeah They miss the community the sense.	yeah. they miss the community, the sense of...
Yeah.			yeah.
...bonding in that community, which I think the military provides in a way that's very, very important.	...bonding in. that community which i think, the military provides in a, way that's very very	...bonding in that community which I think the military provides in a way that's very very	...bonding in that community, which i think the military provides in a way that's very, very important.
Right. I think the other thing which was brought - which Doug brought up is that these ceremonies are beautiful. There's something artful and something quite beautiful about these endings, and it reminds me of a passage that I quote in the book from W.E.B. Du Bois when he talks about beauty and death. It's a lovely ess...	right i think the other thing which was brought, - which doug brought up is that these ceremonies are beautiful there's something artful and something quite beautiful about these endings and. it reminds me. of a passage that i, quote in the book from w.e.b du bois when he talks about beauty and death it's a. lovely. es...	Right I think the other thing which was brought - which Doug brought. up is that these ceremonies are beautiful There's something artful; and something quite beautiful about these endings and it reminds me. of a passage, that I quote in the book from W.E.B Du Bois when he talks about, beauty and death It's a, lovely, e...	right. i think the other thing which was brought - which doug brought up is that these ceremonies are beautiful. there's something artful and something quite beautiful about these endings, and it reminds me of a passage that i quote in the book from w.e.b. du bois when he talks about beauty and death. it's a lovely ess...
You also wrote very interestingly, I thought, about John-Paul Sartre's play "No Exit,"...	you also wrote very interestingly i thought about john-paul sartre's play. "no	You also wrote very interestingly I thought about John-Paul Sartre's play "No	you also wrote very interestingly, i thought, about john-paul sartre's play "no exit,"...
Yes.			yes.