Unnamed: 0
int64
0
47k
index
int64
0
357
q_a
stringlengths
22
51.4k
46,500
344
QUESTION: Can we turn, then, to the article that appeared on 1 May 1983 on the front page of the Mail. PRSE0000199, please. I'm sorry, sir, we had a difficulty with redaction earlier today and -- but this isn't the article we had the difficulty with, so I think we are just being e xtra cautious before we put so...
46,501
344
QUESTION: We can see that you wrote it and you were the medic al correspondent, and the first paragraph: "Blood imported by the NHS from America could be threatening the lives of thousands of British peopl e." Then a little further down: "Experts revealed exclusively to The Mail on Sunday that two men in hospital...
46,502
344
QUESTION: Can I just ask you to pause for a moment, Ms Dougla s. 10 I'm asked by the stenographers if you could sit a l ittle closer to the microphone and speak a little more sl owly for them. We have wonderful stenographers keeping track of everything you say and they're just finding it a little difficult to k...
46,503
344
QUESTION: Let's keep going and I suspect I'll get a note if t here are difficulties. ANSWER: Okay, I can move that if that helps. Is that bette r? I've got an echo now. So it might be.
46,504
344
QUESTION: Thank you. ANSWER: Sorry, would you like me to --
46,505
344
QUESTION: Can you remember whether the doctor was directly treating any haemophilia patients himself? ANSWER: No, he wasn't. He was a scientist rather than a white-coated doctor who'd walk on ward rounds.
46,506
344
QUESTION: In that context, can you remember whether the docto r you spoke with was Arthur Bloom? ANSWER: Categorically it wasn't.
46,507
344
QUESTION: When you spoke to that doctor, do you recall what t hat conversation consisted of? Can you tell us about t he conversation with him? ANSWER: Absolutely. The first -- the reason why I even tar geted that doctor was, again, back to my friend Lorraine. She had heard of his name through a very -- haema...
46,508
344
QUESTION: If we then look at the second column of the article just a little bit further down than where we are, we see a reference to the Swiss Red Cross: "The Swiss Red Cross, chief producer in Switzerland of the anti-clotting factor needed by haemophiliacs, said this weekend they would welcome requests from Bri...
46,509
344
QUESTION: Was your understanding that the Swiss Red Cross cou ld supply the UK's entire needs or just some of them? ANSWER: From memory, the entire need, but the cost would ha ve 19 been very high.
46,510
344
QUESTION: If we look then at the headline that the article wa s given, what involvement did you have in the headlin e? ANSWER: Journalists -- the humble reporter, sadly, never ha s any influence whatsoever on the headline or pictures th at are used. You, if you're lucky, are consulted. An d because of the impo...
46,511
344
QUESTION: When you were speaking to your Cardiff doctor and o ther sources for this article, did any of them express 20 concerns that publishing the story would lead to pa nic and to patients refusing Factor VIII? ANSWER: Before I wrote that article, no, they were voicing genuine concerns. And we did discuss, ...
46,512
344
QUESTION: Before the article was published, you think you had dinner with Norman Fowler. How did that come about ? ANSWER: As a medical correspondent, your job was to know th e Department of Health and the ministers in question and, actually, if you were any good even higher up, thei r bosses too. And because I'm...
46,513
344
QUESTION: Do you think that you discussed the article with hi m before it was published? ANSWER: I would definitely have discussed with him the conc erns because this was in my head and something I really cared about and would definitely have had that conversati on.
46,514
344
QUESTION: Do you recall anything of his response or any more detail of the conversation? ANSWER: With Norman Fowler, at that point, I don't remember him flagging up that he was concerned in any way.
46,515
344
QUESTION: You say in your statement that, prior to the public ation of the watershed article, you would have had to pho ne someone at the Department of Health to check the fa cts. Do you have any recollection of who you phoned or w hat 22 was said? ANSWER: It wasn't just you would phone someone; you would h ave ...
46,516
344
QUESTION: Before we move to another facet of the article did you have any sources who discussed Scottish medical mat ters with you or was this article and subsequent article s primarily England focused? ANSWER: I don't recall it being any kind of divisive Englan d, Wales, Scotland or Northern Irish. It would hav...
46,517
344
QUESTION: Just to go back to a specific question I've been as ked to ask you, whether you had any sources who discuss ed specifically Scottish matters? ANSWER: No.
46,518
344
QUESTION: On the 6 May 1983, Dr Peter Jones wrote a complaint to the Press Council and I want to take you to that. PJON0000001_100, please. Thank you. It's the firs t and second paragraphs I want to pick up, and I will jus t read a little bit of it out, and then ask you about it. He flags the article and the ...
46,519
344
QUESTION: You then worked on a response to the complaint with Mr Steven the Editor, which was ultimately sent out by George Woodhouse, the Managing Editor. ANSWER: Mm-hm.
46,520
344
QUESTION: Could we turn to that, PJON0000001_104, please. The letter responds in detail to each point and I just want to take you to them and ask you about t hem. The first point: "You say the word 'virus' is used but there is no proof that a virus even exists as a cause of the acquired immune deficiency syndrom...
46,521
344
QUESTION: The letter continues: "You state that even if a transmissible agent is eventually proven there is no proof that it has bee n imported from the US." The letter addresses that, particularly if we turn over the page, with the paragraph "Finally": "Finally, leading experts in the UK consulted by us were p...
46,522
344
QUESTION: Then at 4 there is reference to the two men and thi s letter indicates that Dr Jones had said that at the time the article was written this was untrue. Then it s ays this: "Sue Douglas says the two cases with suspected AIDS which we reported were in fact confirming a we ek later by doctors we had pre...
46,523
344
QUESTION: Just over the page, in relation to the Swiss blood point, we pick this up in relation to the article b ut, for completeness, towards the bottom of the page po int 8 deals with Switzerland and we see there: "Dr Ernst Staempfli of the Swiss Red Cross in Bern -- the central laboratories producing most of S...
46,524
344
QUESTION: And so in terms of those other reporters for other newspapers, what was your understanding of what the y were doing in relation to this story? ANSWER: I knew that -- because we all worked in a pack in F leet Street in the old days, and I knew that people were interested in the story because it was reall...
46,525
344
QUESTION: You wrote an article on 8 May 1983, and if we can p ut that up. PJON0000001_101. It notes that the Government is taking emergency 32 action following the first article, and under the heading "Factory" we see this: "Mr Geoffrey Finsberg, junior Health Minister with special responsibility for the blood...
46,526
344
QUESTION: When there's a direct quote from someone, it may se em an obvious question, but where does that come from? ANSWER: Probably a phone call or possibly a meeting. And I should add, sorry, that you would always read, in those days, the quote back that you were using, tha t was going to be published. And I...
46,527
344
QUESTION: Having had a letter of complaint to the Press Counc il, you're now publishing a further article which may b e controversial again. What process was followed wit hin the newspaper in relation to this article in relati on to making sure it was accurate? ANSWER: So the same process. And particularly now,...
46,528
344
QUESTION: There was then a further article about the death of a man which was described as a scandal. If we could have HSOC0016002. If we pick it up on the first column, we see that his death is recorded and the article then says thi s: "[Mr X's] death certificate will say that he died of renal failure at Bristol...
46,529
344
QUESTION: If we then pick it up in the editorial box, with th e heading "Why there must be action", who would have written this editorial element? ANSWER: The editor would write that with the journalist in question, me, sat by his side. And he would be tap ping away with what he wanted the paper to say. The ed...
46,530
344
QUESTION: The editorial piece says in the first paragraph -- let me read a couple of paragraphs out for those who ar e listening to the Inquiry today: "The suppression of the facts of [Mr X's] tragic death and the lack of an inquest point towards a conspiracy of silence. "It may be that in withholding information...
46,531
344
QUESTION: I'm asked to ask whether you considered that Govern ment officials and ministers were party to the conspirac y of silence, particularly -- sorry, yes -- whether they were party to the silence. ANSWER: I felt that they were, and my continued conversatio ns with ministers, as we discussed, and their und...
46,532
344
QUESTION: The editorial then goes on: "In May, I pointed out the dangers of importing blood from a country with an AIDS epidemic. And I was viciously attacked for panic-mongering. Must anoth er innocent man die before action is taken? "However, while Britain continues to accept American blood supplies, our adv...
46,533
344
QUESTION: We can take that down now, Lawrence, thank you. Just staying with the question of conspiracy of silence and thinking about it a little bit more bro adly, you speak in your witness statement about the medic al community being divided between those who wanted to act and those who didn't. ANSWER: Yes.
46,534
344
QUESTION: What do you think differentiated those who wanted t o act from those who didn't? ANSWER: Partly fear. Again. Like I'd experienced. What d o we do? Our job as a doctor, if we're -- as we said in that newspaper editorial, you are responsible and, up to a point, the expert in charge of life and death f...
46,535
344
QUESTION: In your discussion with sources, were you aware of doctors being sanctioned or facing any repercussion s if -- when they did speak out? ANSWER: Yes, because all the time I was talking to doctors saying, "But don't quote me". They might lose thei r jobs.
46,536
344
QUESTION: Are you aware of anybody in fact losing their jobs or was it a fear expressed to you that they might? ANSWER: I think my original source had faced some really ba d backlashes at work, and others were very keen, who I spoke to totally separately, particularly doctors ...
46,537
344
QUESTION: In a much later letter to the Press Council in 1988 , the managing editor said that the article had generated one of the heaviest postbags from readers, largely from grassroot doctors and nurses congratulating the pap er for speaking out. Just for the transcript, the reference is PJON0000001_062. Was ...
46,538
344
QUESTION: From your conversations with your sources, do you h ave any sense of why there was that fear for doctors ab out being frank on such an urgent public health issue? ANSWER: Yes, they had no choice. There was nothing else th ey 42 could give them apart from advising that they went privately, perhaps.
46,539
344
QUESTION: And you speak in your statement of the hierarchy of the medical community was responsible for covering up t he issues. What were you referring to there, what do you mean by that? ANSWER: The hierarchy right to the top in Government terms, and to ministerial levels, but it was both that and tha t se...
46,540
344
QUESTION: Dr Jones wrote another complaint to the Press Counc il about this other article. The reference is PJON0000001_126. But this wasn't pursued because t here was also legal action threatened and resolved betwe en the paper and The Haemophilia Society, and in your statement you said you had no involvement ...
46,541
344
QUESTION: Another of those articles was in November 1984. DHSC0000352. We won't particularly go there today. The Press Council initially upheld Dr Jones's first complaint. What was the impact of that on yo u? ANSWER: Appalling. The Press Council basically was the council -- with phone hacking later and all the ...
46,542
344
QUESTION: -- and whether you saw their publications? ANSWER: The Haemophilia Society's publications, of course.
46,543
344
QUESTION: The Press Council refused to withdraw their adjudic ation but did reconsider it in 1987. By that time you we re the Daily Mail and you weren't involved, but were y ou aware of the withdrawal of it? ANSWER: Of course, and although I was at the Daily Mail, Th e Mail on Sunday was the sister paper of the ...
46,544
344
QUESTION: Thinking about your original May 1983 article, in t erms of other journalists other media outlets, if there hadn't been a press complaint or a backlash about t hat article, what difference do you think that might ha ve made in the actions of other journalists and other media outlets? ANSWER: It's like...
46,545
344
QUESTION: When you say you had understood that he knew there was a problem, where had you obtained that information from? ANSWER: Again, if you recall, this was a sort of cloud of opinion. I can't identify one particular nay-sayer or one person who worked for him or with him. It woul d be haemophiliacs who we...
46,546
344
QUESTION: I'm not going to put this document up, but we have a letter from the Managing Editor that was sent to Dr Jones on 1 July 1983, responding to his complain t. One of the paragraphs I'm asked to read out is this : "I must say that I am concerned at your extremely strong criticism of Sue Douglas and would s...
46,547
344
QUESTION: Apologies, I didn't give the reference for that let ter, PJON0000001_112, just for the transcript. ANSWER: So yes, I mean, George Woodhouse and I would have discussed it but only in the presence with the Edit or. I mean, you know, it would normally be with the Edi tor that I was talking, from managemen...
46,548
344
QUESTION: Was it your understanding, in making his complaint, whether Dr Jones was acting independently or did yo u understand others to be involved or encouraging his actions? ANSWER: It was very much my view then -- it's difficult to discern now with hindsight -- that he was almost ha ving a crusade against me,...
46,549
344
QUESTION: If we can then turn to HSOC0016112, please. In the column furthest to the right, there are these two paragraphs: "Although The Mail on Sunday highlighted the problem five months ago, Health Minister Kenneth Cl arke was still saying yesterday that there was little th at could be done. "'We will make eve...
46,550
344
QUESTION: Also in this article, if we just come out to the ma in article, we were discussing the issue of the conspi racy silence, and I asked you whether you had spoken to The Haemophilia Society, and you indicated that you had. ANSWER: Yes.
46,551
344
QUESTION: I'm invited to ask you who at the Society you spoke to? ANSWER: I can't remember. That was a dialogue and there wo uld have been several people, not just one.
46,552
344
QUESTION: Your Cardiff source, that was not Arthur Bloom, app eared 51 to be giving different information to you than what Bloom was giving to the Society. I'm asked to ask you whether you told the Society that your understandin g was that Arthur Bloom had got it wrong? ANSWER: I don't think it was ever my posit...
46,553
344
QUESTION: Can you tell us any more about what you said to The Society before this article was published? ANSWER: This particular one?
46,554
344
QUESTION: In relation to the conspiracy of silence. ANSWER: Again, it's taxing my memory but, as a code for journalists, I would always have questioned their response, probed deeper, tried to find points of difference, looked at weakness in argument and just said, "Why do you think that? And what do you thin k o...
46,555
344
QUESTION: In relation to your earlier clarity, your first art icle, we discussed the Swiss Red Cross. 52 ANSWER: Yes.
46,556
344
QUESTION: In our discussion you mentioned that you were aware of the risks of the transmission of hepatitis through blood and blood products. Do you recall this being an is sue of concern to you or others in the medical communit y? ANSWER: Yes. Anything that was transmitted that caused unnecessary disease wou...
46,557
344
QUESTION: You mentioned doctors' views, people you were talki ng to: there was no option but to treat patients with Factor VIII. Do you recall any discussion about wh ether a different approach could be taken in relation to mild or moderate haemophiliacs? ANSWER: No, and I do think when I say there was no other...
46,558
344
QUESTION: -- do you recall? 55 ANSWER: There was. And, again, it was so early on that whe n people were voicing alternatives like heat treatmen ts, like all the other -- the changes in T cell behavio ur, none of this was definitive. These were all just: this is what's happening. The only evidence that we kne...
46,559
344
QUESTION: To what extent did you research the safety of blood and blood products collected in the UK, as opposed to t he American imports? ANSWER: From memory, I was told that we had no self-suffici ency. Possibly we did, in the private sector, and that yo u could even --
46,560
344
QUESTION: I'm sorry, not in relation to self-sufficiency. ANSWER: Sorry.
46,561
344
QUESTION: But just in relation to the supply of plasma and bl ood. Did you investigate anything about the sources of t he UK supply? ANSWER: Well, we were getting the American supply. Is that what you mean? We were getting only the American supply because as I understood it, that was cost effective .
46,562
344
QUESTION: So you didn't undertake any investigation about sou rces of blood and plasma collected domestically? ANSWER: Oh, I see what you mean. Sorry. Yes, I knew that -- I mean, obviously, the first question is why can't we 56 get the blood that we're collecting from donors in this country? And, at that poin...
46,563
344
QUESTION: The question is slightly different, I think we are almost there. ANSWER: Sorry.
46,564
344
QUESTION: No, it's my fault for not framing this adequately. Did you uncover anything about where the UK blood and p lasma was coming from, in terms of whether it was the sam e as the US, places like prisons? ANSWER: Oh, I see what you mean. Sorry, I completely -- ye s. Because in this country it's a volunteer ...
46,565
345
QUESTION: Sir, we are turning today to Scottish Government decision making focusing on the period from the 1970s to about the early 1990s. I am going to start with a handful of introductory points, most of which will be familiar to those who have followed previous Inquiry presentations, this oral presentation ...
46,566
345
QUESTION: I believe he's referring to the timing of the decision to put this issue to Scottish Office ministers in the first few months of 1985, and how officials went about deciding -- ANSWER: Well, can you be any more precise about that?
46,567
345
QUESTION: That's -- sir, I will -- if I may, I might come back to being a bit more precise about that. ANSWER: The reason for my asking is this: the idea of evaluating appears to have arisen initially in January 1985 with the DHSS. It is not entirely clear when it was taken forward, but it would have been ...
46,568
345
QUESTION: Sir, I can quite see why you're interested in the precise date. I'm going to come back to the introduction of HIV screening -- ANSWER: It's not -- if you can't answer it off the top then better a considered answer in due course .
46,569
345
QUESTION: Thank you, sir. I could try to give you an answer off the top but it would be a bit too rough and ready and I will make sure that I have a more precise date to give you linking to this paragraph when we get to the introduction of HIV screening later on today . ANSWER: Thank you.
46,570
345
QUESTION: Sir, we can see , in this paragraph that's highlighted here , Mr Murray describing the sorts of factors which might lead to a minister being involved directly in an issue , and he says: "An issue like this would normally be brought to Ministers' attention in the following circumstances: to keep Minist...
46,571
345
QUESTION: That's exactly right, sir, yes. Yes . A number of these factors come back , as you just said , to a question of judgment . They're consistent with what, for example , Mr Macniven said . They don't give us a precise answer . They don't give us a set of criteria by which that judgment was eva...
46,572
345
QUESTION: That's absolutely right, sir, yes. ANSWER: Thank you.
46,573
345
QUESTION: We can take that down now. Thanks, Lawrence. Now , the nature of the relationship between the Scottish Office and the wider UK Government , more particularly between the HHD and the DHSS , or later the Department of Health, is an important aspect of our understanding of HHD decision making in this per...
46,574
345
QUESTION: What we see in the next two paragraphs I'm going to take you to, sir, is Dr Brotherston seems to use the term " infective jaundice " to cover both what we understand becomes hepatitis A and also serum hepatitis , hepatitis B. So in the fourth paragraph that begins "The majority ", it says: "The...
46,575
345
QUESTION: It's not, sir, no. ANSWER: Then if we go to -- what is of interest to us is the last paragraph, is it?
46,576
345
QUESTION: It's the next paragraph, ye s. It's not quite the last one because there are more below that. So he starts with what becomes hepatitis A . He then moves to serum hepatitis, which is what is of interest to us , and he says this -- I just wanted to highlight the first few sentences in this: "Se...
46,577
345
QUESTION: Yes . ANSWER: So the question then is : what form of screening are you having?
46,578
345
QUESTION: Exactly, sir , yes . When I refer to screening techniques , what I mean is the debates about exactly that, sir, the form of screening technique which is -- ANSWER: Yes .
46,579
345
QUESTION: -- appropriate. Now this issue which is being considered by the Maycock Group, the form of screening which is appropriate, is also being raised in correspondence again between Dr Wallace and the HHD , which provides us some insight into what the HHD -- what information it 23 had and what its thinking w...
46,580
345
QUESTION: Osmophoresis, thank you, sir. If we move down to the paragraph that begins "I have no qualms" Dr Scott says: "I have no qualms about anticipating the Maycock report as I wonder if we could in any case stop a [ Regional Transfusion Director ] who 50 to do RPH now or indeed RIANSWER: It is to a gr...
46,581
345
QUESTION: This one ? Of course, sir, yes. It's SCGV0000079_013. S ir, we can see at the top of this document that it's a meeting of the Scottish Health Service Planning Council Blood Transfusion Advisory Group. In attendance at the meeting is Dr McIntyre from the HHD as well as number of trans fusion director...
46,582
345
QUESTION: Of course. ANSWER: Thank you. 9 November -- sorry, 9 March 1977.
46,583
345
QUESTION: 9 March 1977. ANSWER: Thank you.
46,584
345
QUESTION: While we've got that date, sir, 9 March 1977, 21 September 2022 41 earlier on I described the Maycock Advisory Group draft report being circulated to the HHD in around February 1975. The report seems to be finalised September 1975, discussed by directors in Scotland toward...
46,585
345
QUESTION: That's exactly right, sir, yes, that's Dr Wallace's contribution at this time, March 1977. ANSWER: Then he goes on to the bit you're now quoting. Let's have a look at that.
46,586
345
QUESTION: Yes, that's right sir, yes. " Regional Directors were concerned at this increasing risk and would be considering the entire question in the near future. The situation whereby Reports of this kind had to be widely circulated for approval prior to publication invariably resulted in the document being som...
46,587
345
QUESTION: That's exactly right , sir, yes . And that would be consistent with a document that we looked at earlier from Dr Wallace to the Department and Dr Wallace linked some of his concerns about the sensitivity of the test to developments in the use of blood products to Mr Watt at the PFC, and the use of frac...
46,588
345
QUESTION: We're finished with that now, thanks, Lawrence . Now , in the remainder of the 1970s and early 1980s we can see in the document s further consideration of screening methods, that includes developments of , for example, a lower cost RIA, and other methods, trials of differen t techniques were being u...
46,589
345
QUESTION: Sir, I'll be moving now to issues relating to 47 which HIV and AIDS , the Department's knowledge of matters relating to HIV and AIDS, and their responses . Now , the earliest reference to AIDS in documents involving the Home and Health Department , at least in the material available to the Inquiry , ...
46,590
345
QUESTION: That wording, you're absolutely right, sir, 50 does leave that open. I'm not aware from the documents that I've seen, and I believe are available to the Inquiry at the moment, that there were any suspected cases of AIDS in Scotland at the time of this note -- of this minute. It's an issue we might w...
46,591
345
QUESTION: On "Donation Policy ", Mr Davies wrote: "The Blood Transfusion Directors in Scotland are very aware of the problem and have it under constant consideration." They are currently considering ..." Then he s ets out four measures, first : "( a ) Briefing all frontline blood bank staff to handle quest...
46,592
345
QUESTION: I think's more likely to tend towards that second characterisation, sir . It's perhaps a slightly unusual word to use in this context. I think it is likely to reflect officials ' understanding that already at this time , in May 1983 , there was what they considered to be a great deal of sensationa...
46,593
345
QUESTION: That's exactly right, sir, yes. ANSWER: And making a virtue of that .
46,594
345
QUESTION: Absolutely making a virtue of that, sir, yes . ANSWER: Yes . Thank you. 21 September 2022 57
46,595
345
QUESTION: It might be said to be tied not only to the public perception of the risk of domestically produced blood products but also what officials appear to understand the relative risks to be. I'll come to a document a little later on which lays out -- or which provides an insight into at least what some off...
46,596
345
QUESTION: So the Minister's response which comes through his Private Secretary the following day . It's just a short document . SCGV0000147_153. At the bottom we can see it's from Geoff Pearson , Private Secretary to Mr MacKay, directed to Mr Davies. It starts by simply noting that the Minister has seen the m...
46,597
345
QUESTION: That's exactly right , sir, yes. So we can see that link being made, we can see the emphasis on self-sufficiency again . We can also see the use of the " no conclusive proof" line without a qualification 60 attached to it on whether or not a disease was likely to be transmitted by blood a...
46,598
345
QUESTION: That is absolutely right, sir. That is a curious feature of this memo. We'll come a little later to look at what information was provided when to ministers in Scotland and , in particular , Mr MacKay about HTLV-III screening 68 and when it might be introduced and , in doing so, I'll seek to an...
46,599
345
QUESTION: That's right, sir. I'll make sure I get the timing right when we get to HTLV-III screening. From memory, by January 1985, we see information sharing between the DHSS and the SHHD. It could be that at this time, November 1984, we weren't quite there yet in terms of information sharing. ANSWER: We...