Unnamed: 0 int64 0 47k | index int64 0 357 | q_a stringlengths 22 51.4k ⌀ |
|---|---|---|
46,600 | 345 | QUESTION:
Yes.
So as we've seen, there is a query from the
Minister about
w
hen
heat treatment is likely to be
ready.
A
further minute is provided f
rom
Mr Morison on
26 November 1984
.
I won't go to it now but it outlines
developments in trials of heat treatment
of
PFC
21 September 2022
... |
46,601 | 345 | QUESTION:
I hope that the documents we're about to look
at will help our understanding of the knowledge of
Scottish officials on that particular issue. The time
the Minister was briefed, w
ould
appear to be
,
the
80
Minister in Scotland, 21 March 1985. I'll also come to
that --
ANSWER:
Well,
that's --
y... |
46,602 | 345 | QUESTION:
Yes
.
ANSWER:
About 2
0
November, I think. And if
that is so, then what you're telling me at the moment,
or what you've told me, you're summarising -- you're
moving toward, I appreciate, to 1985, but you are
summarising the knowledge they had been developing in
the Department in Scotland in the summ... |
46,603 | 345 | QUESTION:
Most of the documents at least that we've
summarised in the written note, and
it may be that we
can look
at
this furthe
r, seems to
suggest a fairly
high
level state of knowledge
.
There's one document which
might help
,
sir
,
from August 1984
,
which I
could
bring
up now
which
give
s
some... |
46,604 | 345 | QUESTION:
Lawrence
,
it's SCGV0000147
_
079.
ANSWER:
You mean_079?
|
46,605 | 345 | QUESTION:
I'm sorry,
_079 is what I mean, yes.
S
ir,
it's a
16 August 1984
minute from Dr Bell to
Mr Murray in the Department
,
and it's titled "Testing of
blood donation of AIDS"
.
Dr Bell said this:
"I have information that research and development
work in London is proceeding with the objective of
introd... |
46,606 | 345 | QUESTION:
Not that I can recall off the top of my head,
sir. We will double check and find out if there are any
references to that article. I can put it this way: it
sounds like the sort of article that I would have picked
up and included in this section of the written note if
it had been referred to, but we will... |
46,607 | 345 | QUESTION:
Sir, if you do want to get a clearer picture of
this time period in the second half of 1984 and what the
understanding of SHHD officials was, it may be worth
looking briefly at a December 1984 SNBTS directors
'
meeting which was attended by officials from the Home
and Health Department where there was an ... |
46,608 | 345 | QUESTION:
That's right
,
sir, yes.
ANSWER:
That was the 27 November
'
84 meeting
he
was
reporting back on?
|
46,609 | 345 | QUESTION:
27
November '84, that's right. We've made
reference to a not
e
of that meeting which Dr McClelland
believes he prepared, although I
think
it's
not
very
84
clear from the
document
itself
he
prepared it, but
Dr McClelland believe
s
he prepared that document,
which
recorded that he could get n... |
46,610 | 345 | QUESTION:
Very briefly
,
the response from Mr MacKay to
Mr Macpherson's submission, PRSE0000850.
Sir, not the
easiest
document to decipher
immediately. The date of this is 22 March 1985. We get
that
from about the middle
of
this page. It refers at
the bottom to Mr Macpherson's minute of 21 March
,
and
inc... |
46,611 | 345 | QUESTION:
Roughly
,
I would say about ten minutes or so,
I'd hope.
ANSWER:
Right,
okay
. Let's do that at
2.00
,
shall we
?
|
46,612 | 345 | QUESTION:
Thank you, sir
.
ANSWER:
So 2.00.
(12.58 pm)
(The Luncheon Adjournment)
(2.00 pm)
|
46,613 | 345 | QUESTION:
Sir
,
the last document
we looked
at
on the
introduction of HTLV-III screening was from March 1985
and it was that ministerial submission. I'm going to
move forward to late June 1985
,
when a further update,
95
albeit a brief one, was provided to the Minister
.
We can see that in the following do... |
46,614 | 345 | QUESTION:
Sir, I'm going to continue with documents
relating to the HIV Litigation in Scotland and I'm going
to pick matters up shortly after the correspondence we
looked at before the break, a minute dated
8 February 1991 from Mr Tucker to the Private Secretary
to the Secretary of State.
The reference is SCGV00002... |
46,615 | 345 | QUESTION:
Of course.
Back to page 24, please.
ANSWER:
Thank you.
Thank you
.
|
46,616 | 345 | QUESTION:
And if we go back to page 27, please,
Lawrence,
schedule 4
.
Here we have the undertaking to be given by
a qualifying person in Scotland to receive payment from
this Trust.
The second half of the page, please. I won't go
through all the detail but I'm going to pick out few
references. Paragraph 1:
"I h... |
46,617 | 345 | QUESTION:
Yes
.
ANSWER:
The waiver, so far as it related to
England and Northern Ireland, et cetera, was a waiver
which in terms, as I read it on the screen, that the
proceedings were not related to the spread of or
spreading of HIV or hepatitis viruses. This is rather
different because it doesn't mention the ... |
46,618 | 345 | QUESTION:
Sir,
you're right that on their face those two
different versions of this waiver
...
ANSWER:
Yes, so
you say this waiver, there are
two different waivers. They may come to the same effect
but the one is in respect of the spreading of
,
any
allegation about the spread of, which is peculiarly
vague... |
46,619 | 345 | QUESTION:
Time to consider it, sir
.
ANSWER:
Thank you
.
|
46,620 | 345 | QUESTION:
That sounds to me like one of the issues which
should and could sensibly be addressed in the addendum
notes that we are intending to disclose
.
Looking at
those differences in the wording of these waivers, the
extent to which their legal effect changed as a result
of that different wording,
"
spread
"
... |
46,621 | 345 | QUESTION:
I think that will be another one to address in
the notes, sir
.
ANSWER:
In due course,
very well
.
|
46,622 | 345 | QUESTION:
In due course. It's certainly the case that we
can see in the documents referred to in the current
presentation note that we have, that the Scottish
lawyers who were involved in trying to reach agreement
on settlement terms in Scotland were alive to
differences between England and Wales and Scotland on
i... |
46,623 | 345 | QUESTION:
Sir, we'll seek to bottom out some of those
differences that I've described and that you've alighted
on.
For today's purposes, we can turn next to the
formal offer that was made by the Scottish Office to
solicitors representing litigants in Scotland to settle
the litigation, which took place nearly two mo... |
46,624 | 345 | QUESTION:
Sir, tomorrow we return with a witness who will
be attending remotely, John Canavan, an official from
the Department of Health.
ANSWER:
So John Canavan tomorrow at 10.00.
10.00. Thank you very much.
(4.20 pm)
(The hearing adjourned until 10.00 am the following day)
21 September 2022
... |
46,625 | 346 | QUESTION:
And you've held that position since 2006?
ANSWER:
Correct.
|
46,626 | 346 | QUESTION:
But your involvement with the
Irish Haemophilia Society dates back to the early
1980s?
ANSWER:
1982.
|
46,627 | 346 | QUESTION:
And you've been on the board since 1982 other than for
a brief period in around 2003-04?
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
46,628 | 346 | QUESTION:
You were chairman of the Irish Haemophilia Society
between 1987 and 2003?
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
46,629 | 346 | QUESTION:
Between 1994 and 2004 you were president of the World
Federation of Haemophilia?
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
46,630 | 346 | QUESTION:
And between 2011 and 2019 you were president of the
European Haemophilia Consortium?
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
46,631 | 346 | QUESTION:
You yourself have severe haemophilia B?
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
46,632 | 346 | QUESTION:
And you're a medical laboratory scientist by
background and training?
ANSWER:
Correct. |
46,633 | 346 | QUESTION:
And that's the capacity in which you worked
until 1994?
ANSWER:
Correct.
|
46,634 | 346 | QUESTION:
You've sat on multiple committees and boards relating
to haemophilia including, for a period of time, the
Irish Blood Transfusion Service board?
ANSWER:
I still sit on that board, in fact.
|
46,635 | 346 | QUESTION:
You've set those out in your witness statement in
paragraph 3; I'm not going to go through them all but
there is a significant number in terms of your
involvement.
In relation to previous inquiries, you gave
evidence at the Institute of Medicine Inquiry in the
USA in 1994?
ANSWER:
That's correct.
|
46,636 | 346 | QUESTION:
And what, in very broad terms, was the nature of your
evidence?
ANSWER:
The nature of my evidence at the IoM Inquiry was
related, entirely, to the response of governments
outside the US |
46,637 | 346 | QUESTION:
And then you gave information to the Royal Canadian
Mounted Police in 1995 in the course of a --
ANSWER:
That's correct. |
46,638 | 346 | QUESTION:
-- of a visit that was taking place in Canada not for
that purpose?
ANSWER:
That's correct.
|
46,639 | 346 | QUESTION:
You were involved in the Finlay and the
Lindsay Tribunals of Inquiry in Ireland. Just so that
we understand the difference between the two:
the Finlay Tribunal focused on infection through
anti-D and also blood transfusion; the Lindsay Inquiry
looked at the infection of people with haemophilia?
ANSWER:
That... |
46,640 | 346 | QUESTION:
And you gave evidence to the Lindsay Tribunal twice?
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
46,641 | 346 | QUESTION:
And you then gave evidence to the non-statutory
inquiry, the Archer Inquiry, in this country?
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
46,642 | 346 | QUESTION:
I'm not going to ask you in any detail about your work
in Ireland in the 1980s and '90s, but just so that we
can understand the position of
the Irish Haemophilia Society at that time, it was, as
I understand it from your statement, a very small
voluntary organisation and in the early '80s it didn't
have an o... |
46,643 | 346 | QUESTION:
And it was, I think, 1987 before there was any kind of
staff member at all?
ANSWER:
We had a part-time member of staff, two mornings
a week from 1987 and our first full-time staff member
in 1989.
|
46,644 | 346 | QUESTION:
Then I just wanted to ask you briefly about your own
knowledge of AIDS back in the 1980s and how you came
to be aware of the possibility of a risk of
transmission through blood or blood products.
Your statement indicates that that came to the
attention of the Haemophilia Society in Ireland in
1983?
ANSWER:
C... |
46,645 | 346 | QUESTION:
And you yourself learnt about it through reading an
article in a laboratory magazine?
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
46,646 | 346 | QUESTION:
So through your own scientific work?
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
46,647 | 346 | QUESTION:
Do you have any recollection of roughly when in 1983
that might have been?
ANSWER:
March or April of 1983.
|
46,648 | 346 | QUESTION:
Then it was, I think, following a newspaper article,and you've referred, I think, in your statement to
the "killer blood" article, which I think dates it,
for our purposes, to the Mail on Sunday article at
the beginning of May '83. You then had a meeting with
the Irish Blood Transfusion Service?
ANSWER:
Tha... |
46,649 | 346 | QUESTION:
There was a suggestion that you discuss the issue with
someone you've described in your witness statement as
the "treating consultant". Would it be right to
understand that's Professor Temperley that you were
talking about there?
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
46,650 | 346 | QUESTION:
Again, just so that others can understand your
statement, what was his role?
ANSWER:
Professor Temperley was the national haemophilia
director, so he was the director of the main National
Haemophilia Treatment Centre in Dublin at the time.
The discussions I had were with Sean Hanratty, who was
the chief scie... |
46,651 | 346 | QUESTION:
In your witness statement, if we just have it up on
screen.
WITN7418001, please, Lawrence, and if we could go
to page 5.
If we pick it up, top of the page, this is
paragraph 7 of your statement, you've said --
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
46,652 | 346 | QUESTION:
"In his replies to us ..."
And the context in the previous paragraph was the
discussions you've referred to in 1983.
"... the treating consultant pointed out that all
blood products could potentially cause AIDS or non A
non B Hepatitis, and that the risk of bleeding was
much greater than the risk from any vi... |
46,653 | 346 | QUESTION:
Then just one other request for clarification from
your statement. If we go over the page to page 6,
please. Paragraph 9, you report that:"In December 1984 we had the first diagnosis of
AIDS in an Irish person with haemophilia."
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
46,654 | 346 | QUESTION:
And then this:
"The indication from the treating consultant at
that time was that this may be the only case of AIDS
we would see in a person with haemophilia and that
perhaps only 1% of those who were HIV positive would
go on to develop AIDS."
Do you know whether any reason was given for that
rather optimist... |
46,655 | 346 | QUESTION:
Can I then just ask you, in terms of the numbers of
people with haemophilia in Ireland and numbers
infected, if we look at a document you've exhibited to
your statement -- it's WITN7418004 -- we can see it's
entitled "AIDS, Haemophilia and the Government,
A submission from the Irish Haemophilia Society
calli... |
46,656 | 346 | QUESTION:
Third paragraph:
"Of the 296 Haemophiliacs registered in Ireland.
"- 265 have been tested for exposure to HIV.
"- 106 have been infected with HIV ...
"- 9 have developed 'full blown' AIDS.
"- 4 [by that time] have died.
"- 70% of severe Haemophilia A patients have been
infected."
So the 296 haemophiliacs re... |
46,657 | 346 | QUESTION:
Then we have the figures there, 106 infected with HIV,
so 40 per cent. Does that remain the figure, as far
as you know, of the numbers infected with HIV?
ANSWER:
Yes, yes.
|
46,658 | 346 | QUESTION:
Then in terms of the numbers infected with
hepatitis C, do you have any knowledge of what
proportion were infected with hepatitis C?
ANSWER:
We're talking about 240, 245 people.
|
46,659 | 346 | QUESTION:
Okay. So a very significant proportion?
ANSWER:
Yes, but also that would have encompassed a number of
people with mild haemophilia as well.
|
46,660 | 346 | QUESTION:
Understood. We can take that down, thank you.
I want to ask you now, Brian, about some of
the measures that have been put in place, over
the decades in Ireland, to address the needs and
the circumstances of those who were infected through
contaminated blood and blood products. The purpose,
as I know you un... |
46,661 | 346 | QUESTION:
That resulted in the submission that we looked at
briefly --
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
46,662 | 346 | QUESTION:
-- a couple of minutes ago?
ANSWER:
Correct.
|
46,663 | 346 | QUESTION:
The argument that was being made at that point in
time, as I understand it, was that there was a moral
responsibility on the Government to respond to
the situation of those who had been infected, through
no fault of their own, with HIV?
ANSWER:
Yes.
12 |
46,664 | 346 | QUESTION:
That wasn't accepted by the Government to start with
and the Society embarked upon a public and political
campaign?
ANSWER:
I mean, when you say it wasn't accepted, all we
received, actually, was an acknowledgement of receipt
of the document and then five months of silence. And
despite the fact I was naive ... |
46,665 | 346 | QUESTION:
Now, that resulted, eventually, in an agreement which
led to the establishment of the Haemophilia HIV Trust?
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
46,666 | 346 | QUESTION:
Did you -- what was your understanding of what
ultimately persuaded the Government to accede to that?
ANSWER:
Well, the fact that the political media campaign was
very successful, we got a lot of traction, a lot of
media coverage, we had some of our members with HIV
who spoke publicly and very bravely to hig... |
46,667 | 346 | QUESTION:
Now, initially, that trust paid regular payments, so
from about 1987 to 1991 there was some regular
payments?
ANSWER:
1989 to 1991, it was established in '89. We made
regular payments to some individuals, not to all
individuals. It was very much based on an assessment
of individual need and people's indivi... |
46,668 | 346 | QUESTION:
Those are the ex gratia payments, essentially, from
1991?
ANSWER:
Yes, yes.
|
46,669 | 346 | QUESTION:
We'll pick up those in a moment. If we then -- just
staying with the Haemophilia HIV Trust, from 1991
onwards it was one-off payments?
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
46,670 | 346 | QUESTION:
So it might be for funeral grants or equipment, those
kinds of --
ANSWER:
Yes. Hospital beds, wheelchairs, any -- special
mattresses, anything that would be required by
the person with HIV or AIDS to help them to deal with
the condition or -- and certainly one-off items which
would not easily be provided, i... |
46,671 | 346 | QUESTION:
And what you've told us in your statement is that
the way it was designed to operate was that it didn't
have overly complex procedures, or requirements for
lots of different types of proof. The individual
would communicate with the trust, it might be by
letter or by telephone, and a decision would be made
a... |
46,672 | 346 | QUESTION:
Now, in 2002 there were further payments made, we'll
come on to that, but the Tribunal that had been set up
16in relation to hepatitis C was extended to cover HIV?
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
46,673 | 346 | QUESTION:
And as a result there was a decision that needed to be
made about the future of the Haemophilia HIV Trust?
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
46,674 | 346 | QUESTION:
As I understand it, the decision was taken through
consultation with those who had been infected; is that
right -- with a range of beneficiaries?
ANSWER:
Yes, we organised a meeting with as many of those as
possible who survived with HIV and we asked them --
you know, at that point there wasn't an enormous
a... |
46,675 | 346 | QUESTION:
That's the way in which it has continued to operate,
again, through -- it continues, is this right, to make
one-off --
ANSWER:
Yes, yes.
|
46,676 | 346 | QUESTION:
-- payments? Again, it might be for equipment or --
you refer to Christmas payments?
ANSWER:
Yes, we also look very carefully at, you know,
the people's individual circumstances, and we make
17a number of payments at Christmas each year to
individuals who we believe are still in particu... |
46,677 | 346 | QUESTION:
And there was a top-up of the amount that the trust
had in 2006?
ANSWER:
Yes, yes.
|
46,678 | 346 | QUESTION:
EUR 300,000?
ANSWER:
Yes, that's right.
|
46,679 | 346 | QUESTION:
The trust was chaired initially by one High Court
judge and then since then has been chaired by another
High Court judge?
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
46,680 | 346 | QUESTION:
You tell us in your statement that they had met with
a lot of those who were infected, but, you know, they
also made themselves known to the community?
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
46,681 | 346 | QUESTION:
Is that right?
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
46,682 | 346 | QUESTION:
And how important has that been?
ANSWER:
Both Judge Carroll and latterly Judge Murphy, we had
several meetings with the members who had HIV to hear
about their concerns and their issues, and also both
chairs of the trust would usually attend our annual
conference for the full weekend and meet members and
jus... |
46,683 | 346 | QUESTION:
And you were asked in your statement if you thought
that the HIV -- the Haemophilia HIV Trust, the HHT,
had been successful, and you've told us in your
statement that you think it has been, its objectives
were met, and you've identified three factors:
trustees acting with empathy and understanding;
the abili... |
46,684 | 346 | QUESTION:
Is that right?
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
46,685 | 346 | QUESTION:
So that's the HHT.
ANSWER:
Mm.
|
46,686 | 346 | QUESTION:
Now, the second main plank of financial support for
those who were infected is the compensation tribunal,
and so I just wanted to ask you a little about how
that --
ANSWER:
There was the earlier 1991 -- (overspeaking) --
|
46,687 | 346 | QUESTION:
I'm sorry, yes --
ANSWER:
-- as well, yes.
|
46,688 | 346 | QUESTION:
Yes. Yes, let's pick that up.
So there was litigation in Ireland in the same way
as we know that there was litigation --
19ANSWER:
Yes.
|
46,689 | 346 | QUESTION:
-- in the United Kingdom, which was settled in 1991;
is that correct?
ANSWER:
That's correct. We employed a legal team from 1989
and worked with them and we were looking at
the Society actually funding a test case. But as this
was going on and on through the course of 1990, it
became apparent this was not ... |
46,690 | 346 | QUESTION:
That resulted in what I think you've described as
tiered payments --
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
46,691 | 346 | QUESTION:
-- in a way that's a similar but not identical, but
similar to the way in which it was done in the
United Kingdom?
20ANSWER:
Yes.
|
46,692 | 346 | QUESTION:
So if we look by at your statement, please.
WITN7418001, page 24.
It's paragraph 43, and you've set out in the
previous paragraphs the process of the litigation, the
campaign and so on.
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
46,693 | 346 | QUESTION:
"We secured an improved offer of £8 million, to be
paid quickly and with no £1 million claw back."
That was a clawback of what had been paid to the
HHT, was it?
ANSWER:
Originally the Government offer was 7 million, and
from that 7 they also wanted to claw back
the 1 million paid to the HHT in 1996, and they... |
46,694 | 346 | QUESTION:
Then we can see the figures that were agreed there.
21ANSWER:
Yes.
|
46,695 | 346 | QUESTION:
So a married man with children, 101,000; widow,
93,000; married man with no children, 89,000;
single adult or child, £76,000; infected spouse,
25,000, although there were in fact none; and then
non-dependent relatives of a deceased man, 21,000.
So if we look at the position as at the end of
1991, you have th... |
46,696 | 346 | QUESTION:
Then you have the operation of the HHT?
ANSWER:
The HHT, yes.
|
46,697 | 346 | QUESTION:
Now, as your statement then describes to us, what then
came to the forefront was the position of those who
had been infected with hepatitis C?
ANSWER:
Yes.
|
46,698 | 346 | QUESTION:
And you described that particularly coming to your
attention in I think, 1993, when there were
23discussions about the availability of Interferon and,
indeed, people being charged for treatment with
Interferon?
ANSWER:
That's correct. Obviously, when the hepatitis C virus
was identified in 1989, it bec... |
46,699 | 346 | QUESTION:
If we could just put your statement back on screen,
sorry, Lawrence, 7418001, and go to page 25. In
paragraph 46 you say this:
"Following many discussions, it became clear that
the Department of Health were willing to concede in
principle on the issue of compensation."
Then you go on to talk about how the T... |
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