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The Guiding Eye |
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Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2002 9:19 pm |
Posts: 1120 |
Location: Sat drinking 'soul stealer' cocktails in the city of Vilebrier with Morathi... |
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Hello everybody - as always thank you very much for your the replies and thoughts: thank you also to Eldria who was the high elf player that schooled me quite quickly last thursday (see Batrep 2) and helped me to refine this list. |
I'll start from the top, work down and then conclude with my current thinking having had a chat with Calisson about the list (thank you for help Calisson, I'll reply shortly!) - hopefully I won't warble on like the old man that I am haha! :lol: |
@ Demetrius - heya buddy! Long time no see - glad to see you're here on druchii.net still! I've missed that predator avatar! :D The list will CERTAINLY have a bloody tough time against gunlines make no mistake - as you particularly note: Dwarves will prove to be annoying with good toughness, armour and very little panic. However the converse to that is that their main staple of 'mass missile' firepower comes from thunderers and crossbows. Frankly I don't know the dwarf book at all (in terms of whats good and whats bad to take for them) but I think that crossbows tend to be fielded more due to cost reasons: however as a move or fire weapon, much of my army can take advantage of this by positioning out of LOS. |
Similarly the Empire tend to take a mix of either crossbowmen and/or handgunners with only huntsmen being used in small scouting groups - thus their move or fire rule means I should be fairly ok from early on if I position myself out of their LOS. Not only this but if I deploy the shades close to the 12" mark then it may not be too hard to run 10" to get outside of their LOS again before their next shooting phase. |
Of course, one of the issues with both of these armies is the warmachines, both lists are likely to field at least 1 (very likely 2) cannons and the same with a grudge thrower/hellstorm rockets/mortar. It is these 2nd form of war machines that I need to worry about because the first will only kill 2 men maximum (or less if I deploy in single rank facing him). However when most of my army will be deployed quite thinly (dark riders in 1x7/6 shades in 2x5) there is a good chance the template will scatter in front or behind the unit and so missing it entirely. I would also hope that by shoving Mr Bernie (my first ever hydra :P) in view, then they would go "OMG KILL THE MONSTER!!!!!!" - particularly if I jibe at them and say that there is nothing in my army that makes their war machines worth while: though they don't realise it, the pegasus characters are quite well protected against cannons and the like, and even the level 2 has a 2+ ward vs flaming cannonballs... ;) |
Saying all of that however I DO certainly need to take care of them (the warmachine comment would be a red herring you see) but with the best tools our army offers (shades, dark riders, harpies, flying characters) in spades, I think I should be able to destroy their warmachines fairly quickly: unless of course they misfire and do it for me that is :D |
Large combat units should not be a massive issues either (though point taken on characters - especially lone ones, though who the hell would walk around alone with 3 units of shades deployed close by and fireballs aimed at your head is anyones guess?!) as my units would march back and fire (followed by a flee reaction!) or if possible simply run outside of their LOS: no seeing, no charging! And even if they do catch a unit of shades they'll be award 153 VPs: congrats! See below however for when they COULD prove to be a pain in the arse... |
@ Ichiyo1821: I concur that these 3 scenarios are the toughest of the ones in the book (which I WILL be fighting 5 games over with a random chance of each one per game - though no scenario may be repeated over the weekend so there is 1 scenario we Won't play: phew, wordy...). I think we all know that Watchtower will be an ABSOLUTE bugger for my army, however with 3D6 Fireballs, a good chance (64%?) of rolling up flaming sword and then running Mr Bernie in to clear the tower once the all occupents are devastated (I hope), plus my level 4 sniping out enemy characters. Hell even charging my level 2 in to try and breathe weapon the enemy in combat (thankyou I5 + Black Dragon Egg to give T6 for a turn!) could even be possible if I WERE that desperate (I prefer lobbing fireballs though). |
Blood and Glory: yes my 3 Dark Riders hold most of the points here (I don't have my BRB to hand so what I write next might not be quite correct - it assumes that my opponent has to kill off 5 out of the 6 total ponts that my banners/generals death/BSB give me) but even if they kill all 3 units of DRs, they STILL have to kill off 1 of my characters as well. And believe me, I will be likely hiding the DRs for most of that game early on (until the threats are silenced from which point is business as usual). My army was not designed lightly - it has a total of 6 fortitude for this scenario (2 for general, 1 for BSB and each DR unit). |
The one that has me a little nervous is (as Demetrius suggests) large, tough units (with a good armour save such as grave guard/tomb guard) placed in a line in the Battle for the Pass scenario: my old incarnation of the Death By A Thousand Cuts suffered a defeat at the hands of 3 ghoul hordes led by a caster vamp in a graveguard horde (thanks again Eldria! ;)), follow THIS LINK if you wish to read the batrep on it (it has pretty diagrams!). |
I think in these circumstances, purple sun could work wonders if fighting a lower I army (O & G as well), but the principle would be the same: focus fire on one target whilst flying all over the place trying to march block (if I can get in range of 4 units with my 3 flyers then there is a good chance 1 will fail and so will fall behind the others - which might open a gap) + kill off the enemy wizards ASAP thanks to death snipes. Besides, my opponent might get a little distracted if/when I place down 3 large shade units in his back yard area! |
Point taken on more bat reps and getting games in, sadly that may not occur for another week or so (I'll try and get a game in against Skaven this coming weekend if I can). I have made a note of certain lists that would give this a run for its money, but first I just want some 'general' games to try her out and get my dusty old gaming brain back into gear. |
So, my current thoughts? Well as I've written another essay response, I'll keep this brief and just discuss some minor cuts/changes I'm considering: |
After chatting with Calisson who reckons she (the list) needs some more harpies as much for screening purposes than anything else, coupled with my thoughts for a 'suicide shade' unit to tackle war machines/flanks of enemy missile units on the first turn (deploy 12" away and charge them!) which means reducing the size of one unit so that its not such a waste of points. |
Thus the following would occur: |
- 9 shades with no additional HWs = 144pts gained |
+ 6 shades with additional HWs = 102pts lost, 42 remaining. |
+ 3 Harpies to the unit of 5 = 33pts lost (9 remaining) |
+ upgrade the Master's repeater crossbow to a Pair of Handbows (6pts difference) = 3pts remaining. |
What this means: against enemy gunlines, the harpy unit can be spread out to be 8x1 and so give any DRs behind it (use vanguard move to nip behind) an extra -2 to be hit on turn one: thus likely a -3 will occur due to long range. However the cost is the loss of 6 shades shots, but now ALL my shades have dual hand weapons (for that 10x2 enemy missile unit flank charge/late game 'nearly destroyed enemy unit' finisher). Further more, although I lost 6 shots from the shades, I gained an extra 2 from the Master that suffer no move or range penalties (but doesn't have Armour Penetration) |
Do these seem like good changes to make? I think for some time I'll keep running the list as it is and then after I've had 6 games with it I will know if its needed ;) |
_________________ |
The Black Treasures of Naggaroth |
The Cult of the Vile Rose History |
Death of a Thousand Cuts armylist + batreps TLOEDG (The League of Extraordinary Druchii Gentlemen) |
Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:39 am |
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Slave (off the Altar) |
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Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:06 pm |
Posts: 22 |
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Ichiyo1821 wrote: |
You forgot to mention Blood and Glory. |
As beans noted BnG is easy and can largely be ignored as a consideration. The forward tight deployment actually supports this army. If no one breaks then its to VPs but with death it is easy for the list to take generals/bsbs then ping off a unit or two to make armies break. |
Ichiyo1821 wrote: |
Off the bat, Watchtower, Blood and Glory and possibly Battle for the Pass will give the list some problems. |
BFP is slightly awkward but again it depends how good the person on the other side of the table is and how well they can counter MSU. |
Ichiyo1821 wrote: |
You can win with the list that I can tell you, the question is how often? Once your opponent gets the whole avoidance mess thing, provided he has the tools to counter them, he will eventually catch on and win via smart countering. Still I'd like to see more battle reps. |
Its a tournament army each person gets 1 chance to get it right and most armies simply do not have the tools (particularly as cals is designed to remove them in turn 1/2) to deal with this list. Yes he will take losses to these things but wll they kill units wholesale? Will they kill anything near enough? I seriously doubt it. |
You talk very specifically about his bad matches and focus on the lists which hurt this, most simply do not work like that. |
I'll give you a run down of what I tend to see when I go a tournamenting in the uk (I did 20 last year...) |
The average dwarf list is big great weapon blocks and 4-5 WM. thats bait for this army. |
Looking at the other dark elf lists at 2k on here they have what 20-30 xbows? Thats removed as a threat in 1 turn of shooting. Then you down the knights if they have any and then you laugh. Even a well built mass shade list is fighting fire on fire and cals entire list is gunline so they will be outnumbered in that game. (so its hard and he might lose to dice but the advantage is his, Death lev 4 trumps shadow one who is largely irrelevant to the game) |
High Elves and Wood Elfs are much harder because they have more BS shooting depending on build. I'd like to add that at TOS I'm pretty much the only person who runs more than 20 high elf archers most people use spears making them easy prey as well. (bolters hurt turn 1 then die to mass shooting/firebal/spirit leech/caress the peg master) |
Emp is interesting built right they have a lot of good answers: Stanks, W.alter and good artillery, light or fire wizards (I'm not talking about xbows or handgunners seriously no one who does well takes many of them) but they have a hard choice. Castle and risk a game ending purple sun. OR scatter to protect from it and face being sliced open by cals faster moving army. (uncomped remember so cal can simply jammy a magic phase big purp sun at them) |
TK are a bad joke particularly if you nail there heriophant and aren't scared of sphinxs (which we aren't, chariots are more of a threat and still easy to deal with) |
New VC: Could be hard depending on etherals and stuff I honestly don't know enough about them to say anything certain. |
WOC: Built right this is awful, their disc characters could run roughshod over cals entire list single handed. Hellcannon potentially a bit of a pest too. Nothing else even wirth a mention. Also the only match up when cal will not be taking fireball ;) |
DOC: Fully built chaff list with siren sing and standard: Hard match (Reads as fun in my head as its anyones game) Greater demon list = bait. |
Brets: Trebs are threatening until you kill them, then its just a case of picking up points and keeping away. Shades can dance knights all day and the dark riders can simply vanish. |
OnG: Well built chaff with double doom diver, rock lobber mass chariots = painful the game plan is to focus a flank out and prevent them playing their game. Purp sun a game breaker. |
Beastmen: Another bad joke I can't think of much threatening they can pull beyong miasma spam which won't last long vs death. Once general/BSB nuetered panic sets in easily |
Ogres: Most armies running at least a couple of big targets (Double ironblaster is common) which are: Large, expensice and irrelevant. Big blocks of limited threat. Scary things: Firebellies (Tough to deathsnipe and hurty) Greadyfist death level 4s (really bad news) double pistol maneaters (who are one unit, expemsive to easy to kill) Mournfangs (a bit fast really) again purp sun is the game breaker and eliminating the specific threats. Leach kills mournfants, shades kill maneaters, large targets are just that, targets. |
Skaven: Kill the grey seer - win. If on foot death should surfice, if on bell, soulblight and every xbow in the army. Abomb / wheel next (fireballs/xbows) Nothing else really worthy of mention. |
I feel i've forgotten someone but i'm sure they'll be pointed out. |
More reports will follow and if i can get my hands on my other mates DE I may even lower myself to playing a few games with it myself. |
The list is not unbeatable but simply because you can not understand it, it does not make it bad. In fact peoples difficulty understanding it is exactly part of why it works. |
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Look at this way you have a fire mage, 20 18 man xbow units and 2x 6 shades vs cal. (and thats being generous for most 2k lists in terms of relevant firepower) |
You go first and get a big fireball (I'll give a 3d6 one) what do you target? Aim at dark riders sure you kill a unit. |
Aim at shades on average you dont (11 hits 8 wounds) |
Now what? Fire a full unit at it? or spread you fire to cripple his units? (The correct thing to do is target shades and not risk wasting kills so i'll assume you do that) I'm also not assuming terrain plays nay part in the game |
Those shade units of yours are good for 4 hits on his dr so 2 kills, or 1 kill on a shade unit. (I'm assuming you went first and cal deployed right ;)) |
xbows? Even if he gave you a shot (which is by no means certain) itd be moved, long range at shades, so you kill about 3. |
His turn: You've killed what 13 shades? He blows out your fire mage. and returns fire. 14 shades into xbows on moved. kills 7 the riders at long range add 3 more. |
Your turn. Now even if he lets your slow moving unshot up crossbow unit get line of fire you get 26 guys and the shades. So he losses another 4-5. |
His turn: 9 shade left. He gets his fireball, kills one of your shade units. 9 shades open up on the xbows again killing 4-5 and the riders add another 3 so thats a unit gone. (he could at this point drop his peg master on your other unit but i'll assume you've got it exactly right to prevent that) |
Your turn: you can now kill 2 shades (1 from your unit and 1 from the xbows) |
His turn: Fireball some more shades, shoot up your xbows... (leaving 12 who can kill 1 shade or so) |
Well okay I'll be generous here and say you get it spot on and waste no kills. |
He loses 2 shade units, you've lost both shade units, both xbow units and your fire mage. Its tun 3. He can now take pick a unit in your army to delete and Snipe your characters or simply evade as he is already over 100 points up. (I've also not counted his master or life taker) |
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A High Elf and Demon player lurking with his darker friends. |
Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:37 pm |
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The Guiding Eye |
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Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2002 9:19 pm |
Posts: 1120 |
Location: Sat drinking 'soul stealer' cocktails in the city of Vilebrier with Morathi... |
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Wow. Certainly an in depth analysis there Eldria (probably better than we refer by username) We shall certainly have to go through applying practical experience to each of the theoryhammer scenarios posited by ourselves and indeed the constructive criticism/comments of others, however from 5 games now (I shall post my bat rep vs Skaven in a few days) the list is certainly beginning to look VERY nasty and rather capable: the result against the High Elves is something that I shall have to return to when I am no longer so rusty and will be ready for such a terrible foe! |
The match I had against the Skaven this evening was WITHOUT DOUBT one of the closest and most enjoyable games I've had playing warhammer in a VERY long time, and whats more it was fought over the scenario which we have all speculated would prove the toughest to win with this list: The Watchtower... |
...Which was destroyed mid-way through our game and from there on in led to a very tense and close game that pitted the wits of us both. |
However if anyone were able to have a read of Eldria's battle report and the post any thoughts or criticism over here on the army list forum (mention any rules disputes, commentary on specific tactics etc on the Battle Reports forum if you can) then that'd be great! |
This experiment is certainly becoming interesting as we may have hit on a rather unique new way to be using the druchii: more time and tests will show however... |
_________________ |
The Black Treasures of Naggaroth |
The Cult of the Vile Rose History |
Death of a Thousand Cuts armylist + batreps TLOEDG (The League of Extraordinary Druchii Gentlemen) |
Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:10 am |
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