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[1835.34 --> 1839.26] to describe dart as small talk with curly braces totally before this show in the same way that |
[1839.26 --> 1844.70] javascript is you know scheme with curly braces uh how how do you feel about that statement that's a |
[1845.50 --> 1849.82] i'm honored if if that's a statement because small talk is one of these languages that are |
[1850.86 --> 1855.98] very minimal and elegant uh so if he thinks we are close to that i'm very happy |
[1857.50 --> 1864.14] we try to have a very simple execution model we think that if you have a simple execution model it's much |
[1864.14 --> 1869.10] easier for the programmer to understand what's going on when he runs the program for instance if you go |
[1869.10 --> 1874.14] into a debugger and do a single step we want the people to be fully aware of what's going on |
[1875.50 --> 1881.82] and by having simple semantics like you mentioned before that that variables are staying in the scopes |
[1881.82 --> 1888.46] that are cleared in like we have a clean lexical scoping it's much easier to understand what's going on in |
[1888.46 --> 1898.38] in these cases and we think this is a the more comfortable the programmer is with the execution of |
[1898.38 --> 1903.66] a program the more experimentation he does and the more innovation and i think that makes him a better |
[1903.66 --> 1908.94] programmer or her a better programmer yeah it's almost like the flexibility of javascript in some |
[1908.94 --> 1916.38] ways can prevent you from from being too um uh too experimental because you're afraid of what of the |
[1916.38 --> 1920.86] unknown consequences right like with dart you know exactly what you're going to get uh it's very |
[1920.86 --> 1924.86] predictable and so it's it's a little bit easier to like try and experiment without worrying about |
[1924.86 --> 1929.26] you know impacting the rest of the large project you're working on so the other flip side oh go |
[1929.26 --> 1935.90] ahead lars i just one short comment before seth um so um i've used a many different programming |
[1935.90 --> 1942.14] languages but one thing that's interesting with dart is that i get the same feeling as when i program in |
[1942.14 --> 1948.46] small talk in the old days you want to make the program better so often you you write your class |
[1948.46 --> 1954.06] and you start experimenting with it making it smaller and denser and better that feeling as a programmer |
[1954.06 --> 1959.42] is very powerful it makes you make the program look good and it also makes it more robust going forward |
[1961.26 --> 1966.30] so you mentioned experimenting and maybe like features of language make it easier or harder this is |
[1966.30 --> 1971.58] something i think dart's done pretty well at least at least for me and i think it's really critical for a |
[1971.58 --> 1976.38] language of the web that is when you start a web project you might have a very small little script |
[1976.38 --> 1981.02] you know no type annotations probably just some functions and then you hit reload in your browser |
[1981.02 --> 1984.30] and then you see it you see it pop up right there you're like wow that was really cool and then you |
[1984.30 --> 1988.86] might add another couple functions and you hit reload you wow and before you know it you're actually |
[1988.86 --> 1994.30] experimenting and trying out the platform you're building up a mini little app and dart allows you to |
[1994.30 --> 2000.22] start way at that beginning where you just have some functions and reload but it helps you grow over time |
[2000.22 --> 2005.34] and scale up to when you're actually ready to add some classes and then you're ready to add maybe a |
[2005.34 --> 2010.62] library and then you maybe you're ready to add type annotations and so from an experimenting point of |
[2010.62 --> 2017.10] view i actually find dart easier because i can start as early as i want in that kind of scope or scale but i |
[2017.10 --> 2021.98] can keep going and keep going and keep going and i don't sort of collapse under my own weight and also due to |
[2021.98 --> 2029.58] that structure of things like classes and libraries and ultimately packages and interfaces and that you |
[2029.58 --> 2036.54] know all that great stuff um the experimenting of becomes even easier in the ecosystem because i can |
[2036.54 --> 2041.50] build on top of the structure other people build and so i don't need to put something out into the |
[2041.50 --> 2046.06] community and hope it doesn't monkey patch and sort of step over somebody else's stuff for so for |
[2046.06 --> 2053.66] experimenting i actually think dart is really really productive awesome yeah true let me ask you a |
[2053.66 --> 2058.62] question here i'm just reading through one of your faqs which by the way if you are listening to this |
[2058.62 --> 2063.74] show and you have any interest in dart whatsoever go to the website and just like read through the faqs |
[2063.74 --> 2067.74] and the and the different things about the language it's a it's a this is one of the best things i think |
[2067.74 --> 2074.62] dart has done so this is our bullet plate for the show i think i mean this this uh faqs list yeah i mean |
[2074.62 --> 2080.14] it's incredible reading through this and just being able to uh to easily see kind of the evolution of |
[2080.14 --> 2085.10] the language as well as like the the the differences but one of the things that i'm looking for and i |
[2085.10 --> 2088.70] haven't really been able to find because these have to exist right there there has to be some sort |
[2088.70 --> 2093.18] of gotchas for for javascript developers that are coming to dart it can't just be all you know like |
[2093.18 --> 2099.02] butterflies and flowers like there has to be something here that's like if you typically do uh this in |
[2099.02 --> 2103.50] javascript this will catch you up here do you know of any kind of common pitfalls or gotchas that that |
[2103.50 --> 2109.42] javascript developers might experience coming to dart well it's clear that we don't we don't we don't |
[2109.42 --> 2116.22] have eval so if if you are big on uh getting text strings converted into code and execute on the fly |
[2116.70 --> 2122.22] i think it's a problem in dart because we have decided to make it much more structured for various |
[2122.22 --> 2130.14] reasons and so that's certainly something you have to get used to but other than that yeah there |
[2130.14 --> 2135.26] doesn't seem to be a bunch which seems like uh like a pretty awesome thing but it you wonder if |
[2135.26 --> 2140.06] there is there a catch you know what i mean well we've run numerous hackathons internally to the |
[2140.06 --> 2146.86] company externally the company we had a recent global dart flight school program which we ran and uh so i've |
[2146.86 --> 2152.14] seen it numerous times people are up and running in dart in about an hour and they come from all different |
[2152.14 --> 2158.46] backgrounds and this is one of the reasons i really uh really like this project is because it it is so |
[2158.46 --> 2163.26] approachable i've seen high school students um some of their first programming experience in these |
[2163.26 --> 2168.38] hackathons have a web page built and i've seen people with years and years of java years and years |
[2168.38 --> 2174.30] of action script years and years of javascript all all get up and running so uh at least in my experience |
[2174.30 --> 2179.42] it's it's very approachable and familiar and there's not really a lot of those gotchas based on your |
[2179.42 --> 2185.42] other language because job um because dart says okay we've learned a lot of great lessons we're making this a |
[2185.42 --> 2191.26] a familiar approachable experience so let me let me ask you that one of the what i believe is |
[2191.26 --> 2196.38] probably the best lesson that uh dart learned and and i mean wow looking at the kind of the |
[2196.38 --> 2202.62] implementation here is like querying the dom and you know anyone anyone who was around before jquery |
[2202.62 --> 2207.42] knows like querying the dom in javascript was an absolute nightmare and then when jquery came along |
[2207.42 --> 2211.26] you're like oh wow i can query it based on these selectors and it's like so much easier and everything |
[2211.26 --> 2216.78] makes sense and i look at the dart you know how dart queries it on there's there's two succinct |
[2216.78 --> 2221.82] methods to query the dom and that's all you have to worry about oh it gets even better uh what is |
[2221.82 --> 2228.06] returned to you are actual iterables uh and so you no longer have like array like things or arrays |
[2228.86 --> 2234.62] because of that rich core library that we have that you get out of the box with dart you've got lists |
[2234.62 --> 2240.38] and arrays and sets and maps and iterables and once you have that core library then the other |
[2240.38 --> 2244.94] libraries like the html library get to use those as well so if you know dart programming |
[2244.94 --> 2250.38] then you know web programming so i don't even know if people are going to be able to function |
[2250.38 --> 2255.82] knowing that i mean when i start building something for the web like step one is get all your javascript |
[2255.82 --> 2259.50] requirements and one of those is jquery like how are people going to even know how to get started |
[2259.50 --> 2262.70] without having to go out and download the latest production build of jquery |
[2262.70 --> 2272.14] i guess we could yeah i guess skip that step yeah i'm not embarrassed that it's too easy |
[2274.70 --> 2283.58] so i think we should we should mention again that that dart has a very comprehensive basic library |
[2284.06 --> 2291.26] that's very cool we have for asynchronous programming you have futures and streams and that's a very |
[2291.26 --> 2298.06] consistent way of doing asynchronous programming and we have all these collection types that really fit |
[2298.06 --> 2305.74] well together so i think if people are used to a programming language where you have a a good self |
[2305.74 --> 2312.70] libraries like if you come from java or c sharp that is actually very interesting to look at for web |
[2312.70 --> 2318.70] programming and and because of the fact that yeah these futures which are sort of like promises in a sense |
[2318.70 --> 2325.34] and javascript are baked into the core platform all the other packages out in the dart ecosystem use |
[2325.34 --> 2331.42] all these same core primitives so there's no more like which one of these do i use just everyone uses |
[2331.42 --> 2336.46] futures for the one-shot callbacks and streams for the repeating callbacks and it just propagates the |
[2336.46 --> 2341.58] ecosystem and it's just another one of those decision points that the community doesn't have to debate and |
[2341.58 --> 2346.62] developers don't need to reinvent so everyone can kind of take a step up in terms of what they get to work |
[2346.62 --> 2350.46] on and contribute back and it's just it's helped everyone be so much more productive |
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