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[448.86 --> 454.16] we had you on talking about sidekick you had some success with side sidekick pros so for the listener's |
[454.16 --> 458.74] sake what we want to do is we want to talk deeply obviously about the insides and the innards so to |
[458.74 --> 465.08] speak of inspector and what you did there but specifically you you've seemed to hit this um the nail |
[465.08 --> 470.96] in the head so to speak of success when it comes to delivering open source the right way but also |
[470.96 --> 477.44] making a living because you've got your wife you've got uh you've got a beautiful uh little boy a furry |
[477.44 --> 484.12] cat to take care of you know it's not just mike everybody mike's mike's mike but he's got you know |
[484.12 --> 489.60] family you know so you got to make money and you found this really cool way to do this so can you |
[489.60 --> 496.34] take us through some of the journey to kind of get to uh making the choice of supporting that uh ball |
[496.34 --> 506.78] of mud or not sure um yeah i mean at this point in my career um i love writing open source but i'm also |
[506.78 --> 514.88] i i've also had to make the decision that i'm not a charity um that i'm an experienced engineer and |
[514.88 --> 522.12] part of that experience is that i write um ideally i i have the experience to make |
[522.12 --> 533.42] well-designed software um reliable software so um i have to um i i've decided to have a business model |
[533.42 --> 539.16] where i have both an open source product and a commercial product on top of that that open source |
[539.16 --> 547.08] core and and that that commercial product is closed source and and you know of course there's |
[547.08 --> 553.40] some people that really don't like this model but i think uh by and large everybody understands that |
[553.40 --> 558.72] people have to make a living and i can either work for a corporation that is paying me a salary |
[558.72 --> 564.96] to work on full-time open source or i can do it on my own um there's a lot of different business |
[564.96 --> 570.40] models you can you can have of course um yeah oh another popular one is to have services so you do |
[570.40 --> 578.08] consulting for your product um i think this the sensu guys do do that um they do some sensu i think is |
[578.08 --> 584.24] some sort of monitoring system uh it's a very complex monitoring system built on top of rabbit mq if i |
[584.24 --> 588.10] recall similar to reoc too they do the same thing where they have a commercial based version and they |
[588.10 --> 595.66] have support and right it's it's a model that is kind of it has its pros and cons too yeah exactly |
[595.66 --> 601.92] and flexibility maybe be one of them you know where it's a corporation multiple people and again you |
[601.92 --> 608.28] seem like you're you're uh not a rogue you know lone rogue agent but you're you know you like doing |
[608.28 --> 616.46] things the mic way well and i've specifically tried to avoid the type of business where i would need to |
[616.46 --> 624.18] build this giant thing and have dozens of employees and take on venture funding and all this kind of |
[624.18 --> 635.52] stuff um i'm i'm more focused on smaller focused tools like sidekick like inspector that uh i i can |
[635.52 --> 642.24] create a commercial product for i can support it as a single person and make enough money to provide for |
[642.24 --> 648.94] my family so uh so was yeah contributed systems is one person bootstraps no no funding at all |
[648.94 --> 655.66] that's awesome yeah yeah for sure so when you first made this decision back with sidekick |
[655.66 --> 661.20] was it at conception that you said i'm gonna have sidekick and sidekick pro or did you start off |
[661.20 --> 666.46] saying i'm gonna do uh you know a threaded version of rescue and then it got popular and then you thought |
[666.46 --> 673.44] oh i could turn this into a living when i first started out it was more of just a vague notion of |
[673.44 --> 681.20] well i'm starting my my 10th open source project here and i'm going to work on this for another year |
[681.20 --> 687.50] and uh there go my nights and weekends so how can i actually make some money for this so that i've |
[687.50 --> 695.36] justified to my wife um so that's why i initially uh just had sidekick it was it was just the open source |
[695.36 --> 703.68] product i actually sold commercial licenses for sidekick and that did not bring in a ton of money |
[703.68 --> 710.16] it brought in it brought in like 1500 or something like that over the course of six months but um it |
[710.16 --> 714.90] didn't bring in nearly enough to justify my time you know when you when you when you took all the |
[714.90 --> 721.60] hours that i was spending on sidekick i was making minimum wage in terms of uh you know right |
[721.60 --> 727.28] selling licenses right hours to hours to dollars yeah right so you know that's that's when i said |
[727.28 --> 732.22] okay i've got this sidekick thing it's moderately successful at this point we're six months in |
[732.22 --> 739.08] why don't i do a commercial product on top of it and sell that for 10 times as much money |
[739.08 --> 746.36] um and and to see if i can get people not not just to pay you know because their lawyers tell them |
[746.36 --> 751.78] but because they want to buy actual useful functionality and so that's when i started |
[751.78 --> 759.16] i spent about a month building a sidekick pro and uh and then started selling it and you know it it |
[759.16 --> 765.20] ramped up slowly but surely uh when i when i first threw it out there and announced it i had no idea if |
[765.20 --> 770.50] anybody would would buy this thing um you know it's a ruby gem people are used to just saying gem install |
[770.50 --> 778.24] and not having to put in a credit card um but sales were sales were slow at first but they've |
[778.24 --> 785.94] ramped up to the point now where i can i've got a good income that provides for my family just based |
[785.94 --> 791.34] on those sales alone so i want to touch on before we move on jared i want to touch on one thing that |
[791.34 --> 797.20] the listeners might be thinking about in episode 92 we talked to you um about this very topic here but |
[797.20 --> 801.06] one question that came up that you don't have to go back into but i just want to at least touch on |
[801.06 --> 806.92] it quickly which is um you know what's stopping somebody from since it's open source taking side |
[806.92 --> 811.92] pro psychic pro features and putting them in the open source version um that's sort of a hurdle you |
[811.92 --> 816.78] had to get over how do you prevent that just a quick note on that it's the show it's i don't prevent |
[816.78 --> 823.78] it and and i have no interest really in preventing it um if somebody wants to reproduce a feature |
[823.78 --> 831.90] fork sidekick and put it in their own version of sidekick there's legally nothing stopping them |
[831.90 --> 841.46] from doing that um sidekick itself is lgpl they can fork it and they can add a feature to it as long |
[841.46 --> 847.82] as that feature remains open source in their fork they can do whatever they want with it the the |
[847.82 --> 853.50] thing that people are paying for is long-term support they're paying for a roadmap they're paying to know |
[853.50 --> 859.30] that someone is constantly going to be ensuring that rails 4.2 is going to work with it that rails 5 |
[859.30 --> 866.38] is going to work with it that ruby 2.2 is going to work with it that um they're also paying for taste |
[866.38 --> 874.90] that i as a project dictator i have the good taste to know which features are good which features will |
[874.90 --> 882.42] uh add instability to the product um you know that that sort of thing so they're they're paying for |
[882.42 --> 889.64] the experience and the the oversight of the project to to continue um so yeah there's nothing legally |
[889.64 --> 894.76] stopping people from doing that you know just same thing with inspector um if people want to fork |
[894.76 --> 903.34] inspector it's gpl they can add their own feature which copies it um but again i think i'm here for the |
[903.34 --> 907.68] long run i'm getting i've got a product which is paying me to support this for the next few years |
[907.68 --> 912.82] if they just fork it and add a feature are they going to maintain it for the next two years |
[912.82 --> 918.00] right that's a good point you know are they i'm constantly going to be adding new features to the |
[918.00 --> 922.84] open source and the commercial version are they going to be constantly pulling in those upstream changes |
[922.84 --> 929.36] you know businesses don't want to deal with that hassle um they just want to buy something that |
[929.36 --> 934.98] that they know will work and will be there for the next you know in years that they can count on |
[934.98 --> 942.26] well even the dev ux too like i you know a fellow developer who would use your open source version but |
[942.26 --> 948.04] once their business you know they might be fine with using let's say sidekick open source on their |
[948.04 --> 954.36] personal projects but for their you know work they do at their day job or whatever they're doing |
[954.36 --> 959.28] they want something that has that support so they might use the pro version at work so your |
[959.28 --> 964.52] customers are still like me and jared you know and the listeners of the show but they just happen to |
[964.52 --> 969.12] work somewhere else and they and you're right though i think that was a really good point of i don't think |
[969.12 --> 974.56] you said it like you did in 92 so maybe you perfected your language around it because that sounded so much |
[974.56 --> 978.98] better than well not so much better like in a bad way but like it sounded really good it was a good point |
[978.98 --> 982.20] to make that you know you're they're paying for the roadmap they're paying for your taste |
[982.20 --> 988.80] and they're paying for this you know support along the way not just like day-to-day support like |
[988.80 --> 994.82] helping with an issue but like that rails for you know 4.2 is going to work and and other versions |
[994.82 --> 1000.92] and legacy and that kind of stuff so you weren't sure if people were going to buy this though but |
[1000.92 --> 1006.44] recently you were you released a post where you said uh some of your numbers which was quite gracious |
[1006.44 --> 1011.56] yeah uh exposing those i know that's kind of a private thing for a lot of people but i think in the |
[1011.56 --> 1016.62] post you say why and i think it's super helpful for us to see that sidekick pro sales what you said |
[1016.62 --> 1025.34] for the last three months of 2012 were uh 7500 bucks in 2013 they totaled 85 grand and this year sales |
[1025.34 --> 1032.28] should top 175 000 those are pretty good numbers yes um especially since congratulations on that |
[1032.28 --> 1038.92] especially since they are a subscription you know it's no longer a one-time fee so yeah right you charge |
[1038.92 --> 1046.46] is it 750 bucks a year for the sidekick pro yeah so ideally that is a that i mean that's essentially |
[1046.46 --> 1052.92] what is paying for inspector right is is that that reoccurring income that i know is going to be there |
[1052.92 --> 1059.22] so that i can do things like work for four months on a brand new product that i have no idea if anybody's |
[1059.22 --> 1065.52] going to buy yeah how much time do you have to continue to work on sidekick uh sidekick generally takes |
[1065.52 --> 1072.66] 10 to 20 hours a week right now so significant it's significant i mean i'm i'm answering a lot of |
[1072.66 --> 1080.28] emails um people still put in issues all the time although typically 90 of those issues are some sort |
[1080.28 --> 1087.12] of application issue um and then i'm constantly on stack overflow you know if someone posts a sidekick |
[1087.12 --> 1094.98] tagged question i'm usually answering it within 24 hours so um so yeah i mean it's it's 90 |
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