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[78.92 --> 85.06] setup takes just three minutes make sure you use the code the changelog podcast again the changelog |
[85.06 --> 92.40] and with that code you'll get a 20 discount for three months on any plane you choose head to |
[92.40 --> 98.08] codeship.io slash the changelog and tell them we sent you and now on to the show |
[98.08 --> 111.60] all right everybody we're joined back today we got a fun show lined up today we got myself here got |
[111.60 --> 117.62] jared here we got rich lander we got emo landworth we've got varoon gupta uh those guys are from the |
[117.62 --> 124.40] dot net core team over there at microsoft and i tell you this is this is maybe an unprecedented day |
[124.40 --> 129.36] for us because in the history of this show we've only had one show on dot net and that was on nougat |
[129.36 --> 134.68] um we didn't expect to ever have anyone from microsoft on the show talking about dot net being |
[134.68 --> 139.50] open source so i guess that's uh hands in the air on that one but um let's let's go around the table |
[139.50 --> 144.16] here real quick and give some intros so rich let's start with you emo and then varoon uh after that in |
[144.16 --> 154.94] no particular order sure um i'm rich lander as uh jared said and or sorry adam um and uh i've been at |
[154.94 --> 164.12] microsoft since 2000 i've been on the dot net team since uh 2003 and i've shipped each version of dot net |
[164.12 --> 170.22] since 2-0 it's uh been really interesting being on the team and building all the technology that we've |
[170.22 --> 176.16] been shipping to customers that whole time but uh this last little bit where we've been uh getting |
[176.16 --> 181.88] our open source project ready has been definitely the most exciting time in that that whole period |
[181.88 --> 194.50] all right and we got uh emo yeah so i joined microsoft in 2010 and uh i was a customer for a |
[194.50 --> 202.78] very long time i was basically on the first on the first beta is basically since 2002 i believe |
[202.78 --> 208.32] and uh so when i joined the uh the team i had a very much uh you know focus on dot net from a customer |
[208.32 --> 212.42] perspective and i'm super excited to see some of the things happening that we did over the last |
[212.42 --> 216.92] two years in particular releasing more stuff on new bit as well as open source that we're doing now |
[216.92 --> 224.38] so it's really great times for me as well gotcha all right varoon how about you uh hey guys i've been |
[224.38 --> 232.10] in microsoft for the last 10 years mostly around dot net um i'm part of the dot net team which is doing |
[232.10 --> 238.30] the open source work around dot net core interestingly i'm also part of the team that's helping set up |
[238.30 --> 245.40] dot net foundation so it's very exciting for me from both fronts uh you know seeing back last 10 |
[245.40 --> 251.18] years definitely very exciting and a new path um but it's you know something we're all very excited |
[251.18 --> 258.26] about so jared i guess i'll open this uh this show up with probably the most important question we have |
[258.26 --> 264.50] here and to you guys too i mean congrats on taking this shift towards open source i think you'll probably |
[264.50 --> 270.34] see and you probably have seen already the the benefits of of just the open source community |
[270.34 --> 275.40] interacting with you know a wider developer base maybe than you're typically used to with feedback |
[275.40 --> 280.72] and issues and github and pull requests and all this you know collaboration that goes into building |
[280.72 --> 286.26] open source software these days so let's let's maybe ask the the biggest question here which is why |
[286.26 --> 292.78] open source and maybe even a tail-off question which is why now uh how about i'll answer the first |
[292.78 --> 300.38] question i think this is rich right yeah sorry this is rich uh i think the big um key motivation behind |
[300.38 --> 309.66] um why open source is that um we want to just reach developers who um we we can't typically reach |
[309.66 --> 317.18] with a pure kind of closed source uh offering and um there are plenty of folks out there that uh open |
[317.18 --> 324.30] source is a key requirement and uh we want to make them uh our customers as well um so that that's |
[324.30 --> 331.24] really that's really the big piece do you want to tackle the second one email why now yeah so the so |
[331.24 --> 336.54] why now question is interesting so like in the blog post that we published uh two weeks ago we basically |
[336.54 --> 344.76] uh sketched open source as effectively two pieces the first piece is uh cross-plaid which is uh if you think |
[344.76 --> 349.02] of any sort of serious cross-plaid projects and they all have one thing in common in their open |
[349.02 --> 354.56] source and it's not that open source is the only way to do cross-plaid work but it's uh probably the |
[354.56 --> 360.52] most um sustainable way of doing it because you can very easily incorporate other people that care |
[360.52 --> 364.82] about certain things that you either can't repo yet or you just don't care about this yet so a good |
[364.82 --> 369.00] example is if you look at linux for example when linus tol was started this whole project he |
[369.00 --> 374.00] still didn't care about 160 architectures uh for him to target right but over the years |
[374.00 --> 378.44] certain people jumped in that cared about certain architectures and then you know the breadth of the |
[378.44 --> 383.20] project significantly increased over time right and that's that's why it cross-plaid i think of uh |
[383.20 --> 389.22] if you look at dotnet the mono community is a very strong um force there so it would be very very |
[389.22 --> 394.86] you know idiotic from our side if you wouldn't um uh you know incorporate those communities and make |
[394.86 --> 399.54] it easier for them to work with us the second part of it is uh if you look back there for the last two |
[399.54 --> 403.44] years we're basically doing more and more agile delivery and uh from from our point of view |
[403.44 --> 408.00] agile delivery is really the key of uh you know making sure that the right things happening |
[408.00 --> 412.96] uh in a reasonable amount of time because the more complicated the project is and the more |
[412.96 --> 417.66] design up front you perform the higher the chances are you get something wrong at some point right and |
[417.66 --> 422.64] our project is now you know almost 15 years old if you consider the initial work time before it |
[422.64 --> 428.06] went published uh public so there's a lot of complexity in the product itself so by us being able to |
[428.06 --> 433.06] deliver things in an agile fashion that also means we get customer feedback way quicker uh we also |
[433.06 --> 437.66] have happier customers because when you file a bug you live long enough to actually see the bug being |
[437.66 --> 442.14] fixed as well so if you consider this you know in the previous time having like three years release |
[442.14 --> 447.10] cycles uh it was often very frustrating for customers and as i said i was a customer for a very |
[447.10 --> 454.94] long time so i filed a bug in 2004 that got uh closed as uh loan fixed in like 2009 or something so |
[454.94 --> 459.68] i can totally relate to this uh uh problem that you just you know don't get feedback from microsoft |
[459.68 --> 464.30] so agile really gives us this way of doing it and we ship uh packages on you get for over two years |
[464.30 --> 469.30] now on our team and and from from our point of view open source is really just the ultimate version |
[469.30 --> 474.02] of being agile right because you're essentially every time you commit something it's immediately live |
[474.02 --> 479.78] and in theory it's consumable uh modular any bugs so we get feedback pretty much in real time so |
[479.78 --> 484.54] instead of having a customer discussion every two years and we ship a beta we can actually have a |
[484.54 --> 488.48] discussion with the customer in real time and that's why open source now makes a lot more sense |
[488.48 --> 494.56] than it did you know maybe 10 years ago seems like quite a sea change from you know microsoft's |
[494.56 --> 501.04] previous stance um as you guys said in your blog post it was you know kind of you you open source to |
[501.04 --> 507.92] universal acclaim trending on github anything microsoft does makes a big splash but i'm interested in |
[507.92 --> 515.84] how this change came about inside of the company because uh it seems like such a change in strategy |
[515.84 --> 521.88] that usually those things have to be sold up a chain um whose idea was it and how long has it been |
[521.88 --> 528.02] like you guys trying to convince people or are you the ultimate decision makers it's clearly all emo's idea |
[528.02 --> 529.16] definitely |
[529.16 --> 536.80] good one yeah so i think on our side we're all very interested right now that basically say open source |
[536.80 --> 542.52] was my idea yeah but i think that you said like it's a strategy change i would agree that the strategy |
[542.52 --> 546.90] changed but i don't think it should be you know a massive surprise i mean if you if you look over |
[546.90 --> 552.42] the over the last i don't know probably longer years i mean dot net open source is not this you know |
[552.42 --> 556.20] the first open source project that microsoft did right the very first open source project was |
[556.20 --> 561.26] the windows installed the xml and that's not you know fairly long time ago uh asp.net is open |
[561.26 --> 566.50] source for quite a long time now and uh they've managed c sharp and bb compilers was in open source |
[566.50 --> 571.82] six months ago so there's there's clearly a progression where microsoft became um i think |
[571.82 --> 576.08] better at realizing what open source actually means right i mean there's like you know these bad quotes |
[576.08 --> 580.76] from balma like 10 years ago or something about gpl but if you if you realize like how we run with |
[580.76 --> 585.66] open source now i think uh it's clear that it's not a shift that happened overnight um and there's |
[585.66 --> 591.76] for example the shift designer of c sharp he had a lot of experience with open sourcing uh as part |
[591.76 --> 597.02] of the typescript initiative that was open source from the first day and he really absolutely liked |
[597.02 --> 601.40] the experience that that open source designing the open interacting with people in real time |
[601.40 --> 605.74] was ringing because you could reach developers that we just could never reach before right it's really |
[605.74 --> 611.28] about the conversation and and the you know you know the sheer innovation speed of which you can |
[611.28 --> 615.38] take the feedback and make something out of it um and i think in general like if you look at |
[615.38 --> 620.24] microsoft around i mean uh you know balma had this uh vision statement of devices and services for |
[620.24 --> 625.26] example and especially when you look at services and we are in the same work that delivers uh azure as |
[625.26 --> 630.06] well so there's this uh ntfs and both are services now and so they're both in a very aggressive |
[630.06 --> 636.54] uh timeline as far as you know releasing uh you know small increments of uh functionality and then |
[636.54 --> 641.50] getting customer feedback on it and and from our point of view the developer stack is uh something |
[641.50 --> 645.18] that you really have to give people's hand very early on in order to get meaningful feedback but |
[645.18 --> 650.00] we can't just ship faster you know the framework itself on windows because that just doesn't scale |
[650.00 --> 654.58] to 1.8 building machines you really have to have a way where we can give it to developers faster and |
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