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**Erik St. Martin:** And then our special guest today is pretty well known in the industry, and has quite a number of interesting projects and articles that have been out. Please welcome Ben Johnson. |
**Ben Johnson:** Hey there. Thanks for having me. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** I'm crazy excited about this, Erik. I've gotta tell you. |
**Erik St. Martin:** I know, me too. I mean… |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Ben is a staple in the Go community, the smartest man alive. Probably the nicest — maybe him and Matt Holt are probably in a tie for the nicest guys alive. So this is going to be an epic show. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Well, I mean… |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Seriously. |
**Erik St. Martin:** One of the things that I remember — this was a number of years ago, but it was like, "I'm going to implement Raft." \[laughter\] |
**Ben Johnson:** That wasn't necessarily a good idea, though. |
**Erik St. Martin:** I mean, the learning lesson of it, right? |
**Ben Johnson:** It was definitely a learning experience. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Brian will tell you, I have the addiction to databases, too. |
**Ben Johnson:** They're fun. They're really fun. |
**Erik St. Martin:** So I think first — it's more newer content... One of the first things I want to talk about is your new series of posts, your walkthroughs. |
**Ben Johnson:** Oh, sure. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Holy crap. Wow. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Yeah. |
**Ben Johnson:** It's been a really cool experience. I thought I would go through and explain some stuff. I use the standard library quite a bit. A lot of people gave me a hard time because I tend to not use their private libraries (maybe when I should), in lieu of the standard library. So I thought I would probably kn... |
**Erik St. Martin:** I think that's the interesting thing about producing content, right? So if you prepare a talk, or an article, or write books or do instructional videos, you'll always want to make sure you don't misspeak, so you end up doing a lot more research, even on topics you think you already know well, and i... |
**Ben Johnson:** Yeah, and I feel like it kind of lets you know what you don't know about the subject. Yeah, it can help you grow. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** I really love the level of depth in these articles. It's fantastic. I don't think I've read better blog posts. I can't talk today \[laughter\]. We need to start this whole episode over with better lips. |
So I really love the depth of knowledge in these. It's not written at such a level that it makes me feel like an idiot, it's just the tone and the technical detail is perfect. I really enjoy these series. |
**Ben Johnson:** Oh, thank you. |
**Erik St. Martin:** We'll link to all of these in the show notes, but we'll start dropping them in the GoTimeFM channel on Slack for anybody who's listening now, and wants to look through these posts if they haven't seen them already. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** And this is so timeless. It's going to be useful for probably forever. We just need to do a good job resurfacing these posts once in a while. |
**Ben Johnson:** The nice thing about the standard library stuff is that it doesn't really change. They'll fix bugs and make it faster, but you don't have to go back and revamp it. Well, maybe version 2.0, if that ever comes up for Go. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Never. |
**Ben Johnson:** Yup, I agree. |
**Erik St. Martin:** \[03:55\] I think we need more content going through the standard library like that, and showing use cases. Because you can browse through Go Docs, and stuff like that, and look on the Go website, and look through these things, but that doesn't necessarily show you… We talked about Sourcegraph tool... |
**Ben Johnson:** Yeah, for sure. You look at these packages and you see that the layout is alphabetical order, which is great if you know what you're looking for. It's been fun to break them down and understand… There's subcategories in these packages and what those look like. I think that helps to make it more relatab... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** I like the sub-context that comes out - not directly, but indirectly I walk away reinforcing the idea of very small interfaces in Go. I know that in a practical way, a lot of us think of interfaces as a big thing. "I've got an interface to save my user to the database." But that's not really the idi... |
**Erik St. Martin:** Yeah, especially the Standard Package Layout post. I was looking through that, and each approach was the negative sides to it. I could think of packages and projects that I've seen that have used it a lot. And you're like, "Yeah…" I've had some of the circular dependency issues, and stuff like that... |
**Ben Johnson:** I try to think of that as well. The Go standard library, it always makes so much sense; all the names, and the packages... It's just so well laid out. I think that was a big inspiration, too. What did they get right, and how do we apply it to more specific application development? I think they are diff... |
**Erik St. Martin:** I think we need a service. Library Organization as a Service. Here's my project, \[laughs\] you tell me how to lay it out. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** That's exactly the name of the conference talk that I think should be derived from the Standard Package Layout blog post. Packages as a Service \[laughter\]. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Nice! |
**Ben Johnson:** Should be like a package layout factory. |
**Erik St. Martin:** "Send your project to Ben and have him send you back what the layout should be…" |
**Brian Ketelsen:** That's fabulous; $50 and he'll reorganize all of your packages for you. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Look at him undercutting your price already. \[laughter\] |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Well, Ben's a superhero, it's only going to take him 10 minutes. That's a pretty good markup. |
**Erik St. Martin:** That's true. If he could do one every 10 minutes, that would be a good hourly rate. \[laughter\] |
**Ben Johnson:** I've gotten a handful of people so far on the Slack channel just pinging me, asking me questions about the design stuff, which has been nice. You just give some people some quick feedback. It's nice to do that early on, because you know, projects go on for years, and getting that first piece can make e... |
**Erik St. Martin:** It gets really hard, right? There's the common expression 'it's hard to change the wheels on a moving bus.' Especially the bigger projects, you start going down this road, and you're kind of trapped in it. It takes too much effort to change out the organization, and abstract things out the proper w... |
**Carlisia Thompson:** \[08:00\] I really liked when I saw... Ben gave a lightning talk at GopherCon and I was there, and I went, "Okay! This is what I'm talking about! I need to learn how to do this." Because a lot of the Go projects that I've seen, a lot of them have a model package, and I just cringe. I don't know w... |
Then I look at the models, and they have model information, and they have database implementation information altogether, and I don't like that \[laughs\]. So I really, really like the way that Ben lays everything out, and separates everything. Recently, I laid out a project from scratch. I'm not super experienced with... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** That leads me to an interesting question that I always struggle within Go packages. How big is a package? How big should a package be? Where are the boundaries for your packages? I always make too many packages; I don't know whether that's Ruby or Java in my background coming out, but I always make ... |
**Ben Johnson:** I think I've gone back and forth. I used to very much be on the mono package, like "Just put everything in there. It's a pain to try to separate out everything." I've gone the opposite end, too. I don't think that code size, the number of lines, is necessarily a good proxy for it. Sometimes you can hav... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** That was kind of the anti-case I was thinking of. When you think of a large Go project, like Docker or Kubernetes, I wouldn't even know where to begin to start making those boundaries; it's so complex. When you think about dependencies… Good Lord, what are the dependencies in Kubernetes? I don't kno... |
**Erik St. Martin:** But I think you can go back to the basics a little bit too, right? Two common books that I remember recommending to people over the years is Robert Martin's Clean Code, and he wrote another one, too; and The Pragmatic Programmer: From Journeyman to Master. Both of them advocate… You want things tha... |
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