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It's this funny thing, where we have a product roadmap and we're very driven by our work with our partners, so if people have things that they wanna contribute, or find bugs or things like that - that's awesome. But it's not the driving force behind open sourcing. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** I think your license choice kind of proves that point - it's AGLP license, isn't it? |
**Tess Rinearson:** Yeah, it is. That's something that we've actually gotten a lot of feedback - especially from the Go community - about. This is a community that we respect and that matters to us, so that's something else that we've been discussing and we're talking to our lawyers about. It's this balance between... ... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** \[24:03\] I saw a Twitter exchange two days ago between two unnamed Gopher Google employees who said they couldn't even open it. They're prohibited by their company from even looking at AGPL source code. That's kind of sad. |
**Tess Rinearson:** Yeah... I mean, I think it's both... Disclaimer - I know very little about licenses. I sort of have been blessed with not having to think about licenses very much at all until this week, actually. But yeah, I think it's a balance between figuring out how much of that is caution or maybe even paranoi... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Well, it's a tough topic to tread, I totally get that. As a business, you don't want to give away the thing that makes you a business... |
**Tess Rinearson:** Exactly. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** ...but you wanna participate in the open source. It's not easy. I don't mean to sound like I was picking on you, I'm just curious. |
**Tess Rinearson:** No, I'm glad you brought it up. I'm glad I get to say... We have been talking about it, and we definitely have heard this community, and the Go community matters to us, so we're figuring it out. |
**Erik St. Martin:** And for anybody who's not familiar, my understanding of the differences between the AGPL and the GPL is that the AGPL kind of adds a clause where... So, in a typical GPL application, if I run a web service and I have users of my web service, I'm not required to give them the source code. But if I p... |
**Tess Rinearson:** Right. |
**Erik St. Martin:** And I think that's where the concern comes in. But again, I'm not a licensed person either, but I just remember that being kind of a... But from your standpoint, it kind of makes sense too, right? Because people could take this, stand it up somewhere, offer a service and compete with you, right? Be... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** I don't know... I've always had the argument that it's not all of the source code that makes the business, it's the people and the business knowledge in those people that makes the business. You can give away all of the source code you want; it takes a lot more than 2,000 lines of code to turn that ... |
**Tess Rinearson:** Yeah, I mean... I don't know where we're gonna land on it, to be totally honest, but it's an interesting problem and it's one that we're thinking actively about, I'll put it that way. |
**Erik St. Martin:** So let's talk about things we do know, which is Go. What's your experience been building this in Go? |
**Tess Rinearson:** Oh, I'm so glad I'm building this in Go. It's funny, because part of the reason I joined Chain was to write more Go. I think Go is obviously a natural choice for a distributed system, and... Yeah, I don't think I really have anything too concrete to point at, but... |
**Erik St. Martin:** \[27:56\] Have you had any stumbling blocks, things that you ended up having to implement because they didn't quite exist? |
**Tess Rinearson:** I don't think so. Go actually kind of saved my butt last week in an unexpected way. I was working on writing this Windows installer. I'm not a Windows user normally; I have a lot of love for Microsoft, I interned there, but I'm not a Windows user in my current incarnation, but it turns out a lot of ... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Oh, nice... |
**Tess Rinearson:** I cross-compiled that from my MacBook and packaged that in with everything else in the Windows installer, and then that kind of just runs and does all the heavy lifting. So after a few days of wrestling with various unfamiliar Windows concepts, I was like "Oh, I have this great multi-tool in Go", an... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Let me just bust out my Swiss army knife here. |
**Tess Rinearson:** Yeah, totally. It was pretty awesome actually how easy it was once I leapt to that. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** It is kind of awesome. I was as OSCON last week teaching the Kubernetes class, and it was a whole room full of people that had never seen Go before. I was on my Mac, and I had an app - I built it on the Mac, I ran it and then I cross-compiled it and deployed it to a server and ran it on a Linux serv... |
**Tess Rinearson:** Yeah, it's so easy... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Go... Go. Big hugs for Go. |
**Tess Rinearson:** Yeah, it's freaking easy. |
**Erik St. Martin:** I don't even think about the pains of cross-compiling anymore. Before, any time you had to support multiple architectures and operating systems, you were like "Oh, Jesus...", especially with things like C... Now, I don't even think about it, I just write code. I might have to fix a bug or two when ... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** That's because you forgot to use the correct file path thing, right? |
**Tess Rinearson:** Yeah, fortunately I don't have quite enough career history, but I have battle scars from that. It sounds awful, and I'm so glad... I sort of feel like I've come of age with this language that makes it so easy... |
**Erik St. Martin:** I think this language is really good for making systems-level programming more approachable to people. |
**Tess Rinearson:** Yes. In a lot of ways, it's my first systems language. Before I was at Chain, I worked at Medium, and I was pretty full stack. Eventually, I had to learn Go to work on a new service. It was the social graph service - if you recommend something on Medium, then all of your followers can see it, the in... |
\[32:03\] Learning Go and writing this new service in Go gave me a whole new perspective on building web services, and it was this sort of sweet spot of usable, but still reasonably close to the metal; not too abstracted, so I could still understand what was going on, especially coming from Node, where there's a lot of... |
**Erik St. Martin:** So getting into Go has kind of brought you more into systems programming and learning about distributed systems? |
**Tess Rinearson:** For sure, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, it really did help make things more approachable and more tangible. I went to college but I didn't finish, so I didn't take a lot of the distributed system classes and other things like that, that you might take in your third or fourth year of school. So all of th... |
**Erik St. Martin:** You're in good company, I never went to school for any of this either... |
**Tess Rinearson:** Cool! |
**Erik St. Martin:** ... and I learned a lot more about distributed systems and stuff after moving to Go... Because that's what everybody's doing with it. Especially early on, with the codebases, you were kind of looking around to learn the idioms and stuff, so you started kind of picking stuff up along the way, like "... |
**Tess Rinearson:** Totally. |
**Carlisia Thompson:** One thing with open source, if you're building a project that you are planning to open source, I think you would be thinking to be more careful in the way you are structuring the project and best practices, maybe more than a project that's not open sourced, and I'm wondering if Chain has a set of... |
**Tess Rinearson:** Yeah, so it's funny... We actually didn't know we were going to open source this until July, and we've been working on it for over a year. It's funny... This is kind of corny, but when I think about the lifecycle of this project, I actually think about GopherCon a lot, because we started building ou... |
**Erik St. Martin:** You're counting in GopherCons... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Milestones for everybody, though... It's not just the project, it's GopherCon. |
**Tess Rinearson:** Right, I think that's how the world measures time now, right? By GopherCons... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Yeah... That was three GopherCons ago. |
**Tess Rinearson:** Right. \[laughter\] |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Actually, Brad Fitzpatrick did that to me two or three days ago -- no, last week. I hacked Docker into Go's present tool, so I could run a Docker container inside a slide, and I was so proud of myself... So I tweeted it, and Brad's like "I did that three GopherCons ago." I was like, "Oh, son of a gu... |
**Tess Rinearson:** Harsh! |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Yeah... Boy, did that hurt. |
**Erik St. Martin:** \[35:59\] Not only were you late to the party, you were three years late to the party. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** The first GopherCon. That's how we measure time now - three GopherCons. |
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