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**Kris Nova:** `kubeadm` is sort of the second half of what `kops` does. `kubeadm` says "The infrastructure is in place and now I wanna bootstrap a Kubernetes cluster", where `kops` goes "I'll manage the infrastructure, create it if you don't already have it, and bootstrap a Kubernetes cluster as well." |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Oh, okay. |
**Erik St. Martin:** So you're actually speaking about your development or the history of the development of Kops, and lessons learned and all that stuff. Without giving away the secret sauce of our talk, do you wanna give maybe like a little background of what that entails, and maybe some of the struggle that you had ... |
**Kris Nova:** Absolutely. Yeah, again, I don't wanna give too much away here, but basically I came into Kops and the community was moving very fast, and obviously, if you've ever watched the Kubernetes community, the whole Kubernetes community moves very fast. We've started working and developing, and as I started goi... |
I really think it was like a classic taste of -- we went through and we coded it with like... I believe you were saying something about best intentions, right? We were going through and trying to create an environment that would be easy for us to scale and change later. So we had abstraction, we had interfaces in place... |
To kind of go into the developer empathy side of things here, it actually got other maintainers and other contributors excited and involved in the project. |
**Erik St. Martin:** And what was that effort like? How long did it take to refactor this codebase from this crazy unwieldy thing that you were alluding to, into something that you're more proud of now? |
**Kris Nova:** The timeline was super quick... It was about three weeks. We were trying to make a release - I think I wanna say 1.54; I have it in my deck. And the thing is in the Kops community we usually try to do a release right after Kubernetes. So a Kubernetes is N, and 1-2 weeks later we wanna have supporting Kop... |
\[12:09\] So as we were sort of scrambling to get this done, we started to go through it, look at the code and realize "Oh, maybe this is a lot of effort and a lot of code here to dissolve one simple problem. Maybe we can take this whole giant bundle of Go code out and replace it with a handful of really expressive fun... |
\[alarm sound noise\] |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Uh-oh... [Danger, Will Robinson](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWwOJlOI1nU)! Danger! |
**Erik St. Martin:** What is the...? |
**Brian Ketelsen:** It sounds like a weather warning. |
**Kris Nova:** I think we just got an AMBER alert here in Colorado, and that was my Okay Google box on the shelf behind me. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** That would actually make sense, because you can't mute those things. |
**Kris Nova:** Yup. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** So Kops - we understand now. Can we talk about Draft? Because I think Draft has probably more impact on your day-to-day Go developer than Kops does. What's the story with Draft? There's so much hype, like "Draft is gonna change everything", but I haven't sat down and tried it yet. What's Draft gonna... |
**Kris Nova:** Again, I think this is moving into the developer empathy and operational empathy space. Draft makes it really easy as a developer to get an application that you're working on locally running in your Kubernetes cluster with relatively low overhead. |
I guess the story behind it would be you have a Draft daemon that's running and it's watching a directory for deltas; as it detects a delta, you make a change, like add a new line and save the file, or something. |
It'll detect that and it will go through this rebuilding and redeployment cycle where it'll bundle up your application into a container, push it to a registry and then use [Helm](https://github.com/kubernetes/helm) - that's sort of like behind the scenes of what's going on in Draft - to actually make a deployment in Ku... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Oh, wow... |
**Kris Nova:** I used to work on Scala, and this tool reminds me of `sbt` quite a bit, with this sort of "You run it and it sits there, and as soon as you make a change, it'll sort of recompile" what it did in Scala. For Draft, for recompiling it's actually a build stage where it will actually compile your code if you'... |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Yeah, everybody has that same nasty Bash script if they're working in Kubernetes. It almost sounds like a "Heroku for Kubernetes" sort of thing; simplifying the whole development workflow. That sounds cool. Does it use a concept of buildpacks or something similar to determine how to containerize the... |
**Kris Nova:** So there is buildpacks. I think right now we support six or seven languages, and those are built into the codebase. I know we plan on growing those over time. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** That's really cool. I'm looking through the docs now to see what the list of those six is... I don't see it yet, but I'm sure it's there somewhere. That's really awesome. I'm a Draft-sold person; I'm gonna have to go play with it. |
**Erik St. Martin:** I think there was an article - I forget who posted the article from the Microsoft team when Draft was released... But that listed the languages, I think -- I was trying to look it up real quick. |
**Kris Nova:** There's a [directory](https://github.com/Azure/draft/tree/master/packs) in Draft... Let me see if I can pull it up. |
**Erik St. Martin:** \[15:54\] And in addition to that, how does this work as far as like -- what's the word I'm looking for here...? Sharing the cluster with production systems for like multitenancy, multiple developers leveraging the same Kubernetes cluster... Does your application as it's being built out in Draft - ... |
**Kris Nova:** So there's a command `draft` in it; you specify the namespace you wanna run in, and as long as two people are using different namespaces, they're not gonna conflict. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** Nice, that's really cool. |
**Erik St. Martin:** So is this type of stuff mostly what you're working on at Microsoft? What other things are you responsible for? you said you're working on the Azure team, right? |
**Kris Nova:** Right. So right now I'm working on some internal projects that are sort of like behind the scenes that we're gonna announce later once they're a little more fleshed out... But basically I'm on the ACS team, and building out bigger, badder, more awesome Kubernetes functionality for Azure users. |
**Erik St. Martin:** So is there a particular part of Kubernetes that you prefer to work on or that you find yourself mostly working on? Because I think the thing we all find is there's so many components that it's really hard to be aware of all of them - the scheduler, the networking components and storage... There's ... |
**Kris Nova:** It does. To put it into perspective, when I first started on the Deis (now Microsoft) team, I had never really even interacted with a cluster past the API. My entire Kubernetes career up until January of this year was bootstrapping and digging through kubelet logs, and understanding how the components of... |
I think I still kind of naturally go into that space - underlying bootstrapping and how does the system work even behind the scenes and what is it the system needs look like, and making sure that's all happy and healthy. And then of course, how does the infrastructure underneath that fit into that whole orchestration b... |
**Erik St. Martin:** Kind of like the provisioning aspect and kind of how all the components communicate between themselves, and not so much the application layer - am I understanding that right? |
**Kris Nova:** Yeah. |
**Erik St. Martin:** So if you had plenty of free time, is there an area that you would love to dig into deeper? |
**Kris Nova:** I think I really would like to get into building out new applications in Kubernetes. I've kind of always gone through this exercise of getting Kubernetes up and running, dealing with the infrastructure, solving those networking and network overlay problems... I've never actually had the joy of "I'm gonna... |
So I've secretly been kind of like, "One of these days I'm gonna move my blog over, on a weekend, or something like that..." |
**Erik St. Martin:** But indirectly, you've helped everybody launch their stuff, right? |
**Kris Nova:** Right. |
**Erik St. Martin:** So yeah, there's a lot of value in that, but I think it's always fun, looking at stuff... I look at [Jessie Frazelle](https://twitter.com/jessfraz) too, and it's like "She put what in a container...?!" \[laughter\] |
**Kris Nova:** Yeah, we actually did a Helm hack night in San Francisco last week, and I might have had one too many beers, but I thought it would be a good idea to try to run [IE6](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer_6) in a container, just because some of this stuff we're dealing with here at Microsoft re... |
\[19:46\] So I started going through the exercise, and it's actually pretty fun containerizing odd things. I had a good time. And once it's done, it's kind of done forever and you don't really have to deal with it anymore. It's kind of like you give yourself these neat little LEGO blocks. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** We've gotta know how deep was that rabbit hole for IE6. |
**Kris Nova:** It really wasn't that bad at all. It was really no different than getting IE6 running in [Wine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_(software)) on Linux. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** So you did in Wine and Docker? |
**Kris Nova:** Yup. |
**Brian Ketelsen:** That makes sense. |
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