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**Jerod Santo:** Yeah... Coming from a scenario where you're a user of Python, which is an established, large language with a huge ecosystem around it and where you probably wouldn't have as much of a voice, here is Node - a brand new scenario where your voice can be heard and your desires could be expressed... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** And you can have some impact. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Yeah. I mean, it was true then and it's still true now that it is so much easier to make change - especially a huge change in something new, than steering an old ship in a new direction. Reforming projects is considerably harder than starting new ones. Even the reforms that have been made to the Node... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. So as we fast forward, speaking of the fork... io.js (the fork) was actually where we met you, or at least -- I don't know, Adam, if you knew Mikeal beforehand, but that's when I met you... We interviewed you on the Changelog about io.js and the forking at that time. Then we got you back on to ta... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Yeah, so I was one of many people leading the io.js effort in the fork; I lead an effort to get everything merged into the foundation as well. Because of my work doing that, the Linux Foundation really wanted somebody to take the reins and lead the foundation in the early days, with a focus on making... |
It did go really well, and I'm still with the Node.js Foundation. From the time that we merged, the core communities I think probably quadrupled in size. There's so many more contributors, so we've had to continue to scale how that community works, and I've been involved in that, as well. But it's certainly not in dang... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It's a lot of work too that you put in. I remember when we first met you around the io.js timeframe, and the side chats... We had a couple emails, we talked to Scott Hammond from Joyent, I got some advice from you on how to best navigate that conversation... And I just remember thinking how busy you... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** \[12:15\] Yeah, that was a really crazy time. I think one of the reasons why I was working so hard was that there weren't a lot of people that had history in the community that everyone that needed to be involved in the conversation would still speak to. A lot of what you didn't see at the surface wa... |
I had stayed out of daily core development as of 2012 - I think that was the last time that I put code id - and focused a lot more on the ecosystem. But because I had been there early, I had a lot of relationships with all those people, because I continued to do community conferences and a lot of general community work... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** There's a lot of work... I remember seeing all the issues on the iojs.org and the Technical Steering Committee conversations, documents being created on how the government should be formed, and obviously that made you fast forward to six months ago when we started Request For Commits - it made you a... |
Now we're here at this point where we can actually talk about celebrating the direction we're going. You've been through all these bad times and now it's like, "Here's some good times. Let's celebrate them." Jerod and I had this desire to do a show around JavaScript for a while... We had kind of resisted this camp-base... |
We've got some awesome music, a fun theme where it's a party every single week, we're celebrating this great community... It's not just simply JavaScript, it's the entire web platform, which is why we asked you some stories about your back-story. But let's talk about this show today, let's talk about where we're going ... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** I'm really interested in chronicling the web platform expanding beyond the browser into IoT, into mobile, into now desktop applications... It's crazy. So not just extending what the web can do, but also how we use it. Obviously, Node has been a critical component in enabling that to happen, but it's ... |
\[16:03\] There's even more to that story, as well... Johnny-Five wouldn't have been written without Serialport from Chris Williams who started JSConf, and I don't think we would have a community if it weren't for JSConf, so... There's a lot going on there, and I think a lot of it is somewhat untold, and as it continue... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Or even format - what was the best way to roll it out... Jerod, I gotta hand it to you, man; the original name for this was a bit pretentious - JS Matters. We wanted it to be a play on words, like JavaScript matters - like it does matter, but then also talk about JavaScript matters of substance... T... |
It needed to be something that was playful. We didn't want to come to the table with this -- sure, it's a serious podcast, but we wanted to come with this whimsical attitude to some degree where it's like, "Come and have fun. Let's just not sit down and argue about things." And Mikeal's perspective of like, "We should ... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Yeah, I think you can only do that with a panel, right? Because you get into a rhythm where certain people will play devil's advocate, or at least try to advocate what the opposition to your opinion is saying, even if they don't believe it, and you really only get that rapport if you have a consisten... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, there's a lot of interview shows out there, too... The Changelog, Request For Commits - even though they're highly conversational, they're very much interview style shows where it's two hosts and a guest. This is a bit different - you mentioned panels. Alex Sexton is one of the panelists, Rach... |
When we sit down and talk to Alex Sexton and Rachel White about their story, like we did with you today, we're gonna hear a very different perspective, how they came to where they're at, and then obviously be a part of the show. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Yeah, I mean... Alex Sexton loves to disagree with me. He was one of the first people that I ever thought of. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** He's like, "Yes, can I do that on a podcast, so everyone hears it?" \[laughter\] Sweet. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Even if he agrees 99%, the first thing he'll say is this 1% where he's like, "Yeah, you're full of shit about this...!" \[laughs\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It was kind of funny, because in the pilot -- we've gotta air this at some point, since I'm mentioning it... I remember in the pilot that we had done - and this is even like three months back... We've been trying to iterate on this idea to some degree for a while now, but even in the pilot, the very... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Yeah, he's great with that. He was the first person that I thought of for that. Also, he has a very different perspective than I do. He came in it much more from the frontend world, from building websites and then getting involved in the web platform. And then he has a lot of context around the other... |
\[20:09\] She's relatively new to the whole scene, but is at the top of most of our speaking lists for different conferences and stuff like that. She's just been amazing. And she comes from this IoT community that I think me and Alex know about, but aren't involved enough in to really know what's going on. We know enou... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. Well, I didn't know Rachel until you introduced me to her, and my new question for her every time I see her now is, "What have you built lately? What's the latest robot you've built?" And she's always got something funny, and every single time it's got something to do with cats... That's Rache... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Yeah... She's also super funny. Alex and her are both actually really funny, so that's great, because I'm not super funny; that will really balance things out and make it a fun show. If you're gonna call it JS Party, you need some funnier people on. |
The first time I met Rachel... I think it was actually the first time that she spoke at a (I guess you can call it) a tech conference, but barely... I was doing this thing for a while called JS Fest - it was a week of smaller, half-day events, and because you can have an organizer just pick talks and not have to deal w... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's a good title from her, I'm sure. That's her humor, too... She's got such a fun attitude. She's so much fun to be around, she's so much fun to talk to, and when I got to know her better, I totally understood why you thought she'd be a great panelist for this show. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Yeah, it's gonna be a fun show. It's gonna be really good. |
**Jerod Santo:** One thing that we're trying to do with this show - we've mentioned it's live. We have a set schedule, Friday afternoons - depending on where you are in the world; if you're U.S.-centric, you're either around lunch time or you're winding up your day, and we can all get together and celebrate JavaScript ... |
But in light of our desire not to just be Node-specific, not to be just hardcore "people talking about V8" or just talking about frontend, new APIs that are in the browser... We wanna make something for all of us - frontenders, CSS design people, JavaScript hardcore programmers... If you touch the web platform and JS i... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** \[24:20\] So because we're doing it every week and we're trying to be really consistent, I think that we will pick up things that are topical. If some big web news thing goes out, or some new library ships that everybody's talking about - that will end up being a subject, for sure. We will follow tha... |
I don't know about you, but whenever I see people talking about an announcement like that that goes out and I know a lot about it, everybody misses all of the context and all the subtlety, and there's a couple podcasts in the political space and in the economic space that do a really good job of deconstructing that and... |
I think I also want to try - and this is a really difficult thing to do - to unwind a lot of stuff that's going on in the web and explain it from the ground up. We start to throw around jargon and words for entire sets of specifications or work that's going on like everybody knows what we're talking about, and at the e... |
**Jerod Santo:** I still don't know what that means... \[laughter\] I'm pretty sure I've built a couple of them, but I don't know what that means. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Right, and you'll see people -- Nolan Lawson does this sometimes... [Mariko](https://kosamari.com/) does an amazing job of this. She's a programmer in New York. She will take a word or a subject that people throw around a lot that she has noticed other newer people are kind of afraid to ask what that... |
When Nolan Lawson wrote that piece on progressive web apps, I think that everybody went, "Oh, god... Finally, I can stop pretending like I know what this means...", like there's actually this explainer now. So I really want us to try to do that, as well. When we bring up a news item about some topic in some area, we ac... |
**Jerod Santo:** You can teach all of us how WebRTC works. |
**Mikeal Rogers:** I don't know if you can explain that in a podcast... \[laughter\] It's one of the more overly complicated parts of the web. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Visuals required? |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Maybe, I don't know. I think we could probably get into some of that; I think that I can explain part of that. I think that you just have to talk about the data part and the media part separately, that's the difficult bit. |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, don't start teaching us now, or we'll never get out of here. \[laughter\] |
**Mikeal Rogers:** Alright. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So who should listen to this show? If someone's listening to this right now, what kind of thing are they doing, what role will they play? I know you mentioned the web platform, but that's one of those jargons you mentioned that you may assume "I'm part of that" or "I'm not part of that." Is is simpl... |
**Mikeal Rogers:** I think that if you work on the web, if you use web technologies to build anything, whether it's CSS or JavaScript, if you work on IoT, on serverless, on any of that - we're gonna get into all of those subjects. If we aren't doing enough job of unwinding these topics so that everybody is on the same ... |
\[28:09\] Because especially with the breadth of the topics that we're talking about, even if you really understood one thing that we went and talked about, you wouldn't understand the next. You're not gonna have the deep, low-level network knowledge and the CSS knowledge, right? |
If we're not doing a good enough job of explaining it, just let us know and we will continue to get better at that and continue to actively unwind this stuff, so that everybody working on the web can really learn more about this, understand more of this. And as all of these new news items and framework etc. come out, I... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Jerod mentioned earlier about a live chat room - that chat room is actually Slack, and we're piggybacking off of some new things we're changing about the Changelog community. We used to charge for accessing the Changelog community... It felt so weird... Jerod, I don't know about you, but when I was ... |
Well, now it's free, we're opening it wide up. You get access to our Slack community, and part of that Slack community is the JS Party Channel; live every Friday we'll do this show. To get access to Slack while you're listening live, head to changelog.com/community. Back to what you said, Mikeal, about iteration - I th... |
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