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**Adam Stacoviak:** Is that open source though, or is that just the internet? Because the modern mentality has infected the internet. |
**Zed Shaw:** Oh yeah, totally. But the thing that I think in open source -- oh, so this is one thing that's really interesting about fascism, is you find it happens whenever there's a new communication medium. You find rises in totalitarianism when there's a new way to talk to people. This happened when ReadIO came ou... |
So the internet comes out, and suddenly you can use that whole propaganda tactic again to get a new batch of followers, and ta-dah! There you have it. But I think what I have started to find is that a lot of the people who are programmers kind of like that there's corporations taking advantage or harming the people tha... |
\[48:00\] And I started to realize, look, I think the reason why these corporations can do all this stuff - they can collude illegally and nobody cares, and they can just destroy people's lives, and take-take-take and never give back and all these sorts of things - because you too have been saying, "Oh, well they gave ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I actually asked Brendan Burns face-to-face at KubeCon last year this very question; he was one of the founders of Kubernetes. I said "Why don't you just keep it for yourself? Why didn't you turn it into a corporation yourself, or a for-profit thing?" He was like, "It would have never gone how it ha... |
**Zed Shaw:** Yeah. Actually, I think one of the other reasons why you can't really make open source is I think the imagination is you can just be a dude in your bedroom, crank out some code and you're gonna get a job, or cash, or something like that... And I think no. I think now to run a very successful, large open s... |
I think you're now competing with a Google who has 500 billion dollars and can hire 1,000 people to work on their fopen source project... And you are not gonna make a competitor to that. You're not gonna be able to fork it, either. |
If this is a project that takes 1,000 people, you and your three friends who hate it are gonna fork it? No, you're not gonna be able to do that. And then what, you're going to get a job? |
I remember Google interviewed the dude who made Homebrew, and they didn't hire him. They used his software. And he can clearly make a piece of software and manage a team, which is way more important than any algorithm's knowledge... And they turned him down because he couldn't reverse a black tree. I'm thinking "That's... |
So for me, I think if -- yeah, Kubernetes totally made the right decision... Trying to run a project that large without support, without money... And then, venture capitalists won't invest in a lot of these projects, because if you invest money in a Kubernetes, that Kubernetes needs to have a return on investment. |
**Jerod Santo:** Adam said "founders of Kubernetes" - it was founded inside of Google, so it wasn't like a startup that Google acquired. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. |
**Jerod Santo:** They founded it, but they founded it as -- it was already owned by Google. |
**Zed Shaw:** Right. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** But technically, they could have not presented it. They really pushed it to get funding inside of Google. Maybe I'm wrong, but if I heard correctly, it sounded like there was a choice of it could have been a Google thing or a "us three guys (I think it was three) doing this originally." There was a ... |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, they were Google employees, so it would have been a Google thing. Yeah, anyways... |
**Zed Shaw:** So I think GitLab is a very good example of someone working -- like, it's two people that mainly started it, and then they just ran it, and then it got successful enough that they were able to actually receive a pretty large VC investment. But it's different... You can go with your crappy app that you hac... |
\[51:55\] I actually think if the guys who did Kubernetes went off to investors and said "Yeah, what we wanna do is create this thing that basically makes it so you can craft your AWS infrastructure, whatever." They'd be like, "Hm... Nah, we don't wanna do that, because a bunch of our portfolio companies need free stuf... |
**Jerod Santo:** Now I'm just thinking of all the different people who built -- I mean, another trend that we're tracking, and I don't disagree that it's easy in 2018... I think it was probably easier in 2016 to get VC funded in the Valley with an app or just in general with a good pitch deck... I hear it's getting har... |
So that's a path that a lot of people are taking, and when I say we're coming out of our ears, maybe a dozen or so that I think of, of projects that are making that work, at least for now... We'll see if they can go for the long run, but... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** More than before. |
**Zed Shaw:** Yeah, more than before. Right. But I bet if you look at them, the order of operations was not "Hey VC, here's my pitch deck and zero code. Fund me so I can make this happen." I bet the order was "I already have 20 million users, 5,000 users, whatever. I've already got a working project that's already used... |
Now, if you do any other kind of -- I mean, basically, I remember if you were living in New York City and you wanted to make money in software, the easiest way was to make something banks wanted, and write it in Java... Because they would just suck that up, no problem. It was like "Oh yeah, you have a Java-based, web s... |
I think in a lot of cases -- I really think that it used to be there was this sort of like contract where if you did open source, you at least could get a job, because that demonstrated that you could work... And they sort of changed that up. Now I think the contract is if you do open source, you'd better treat it like... |
And then when you don't really wanna work for free, like when you go "No, screw you. I don't wanna work for free. That's ridiculous. I don't wanna work for free", they're like "Oh, you're not a team player. You're a jerk." And that happens a lot. And all of that is part of this strategy. I don't know if anyone has arti... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, I doubt if you digged far enough into the vaults of these organizations you're gonna find that gameplan written down in a briefing that somebody proposed to their upper management as a gameplan. |
**Zed Shaw:** Yeah. You know, I will say, based on the documents that we saw from Microsoft about their "embrace and extend" strategy - I remember there were things that they had said when they got sued... Remember back in the day a whole bunch of these emails came out? And we know what their strategy is now. I predict... |
\[55:56\] But again, oh well, I mean, that's companies. Why are we surprised by that? I'm not surprised by that. And then I feel open source developers, programmers in general I feel are very - I don't know why, but I think they're very fascist... Like servile fascists. |
Totalitarianism, right? Okay, so totalitarianism is basically the belief that somebody else should control things... And that's fine; somebody else controls things seems to be like, you know, governments, societies, religions, whatever. But then they add on "And anyone who disagrees with me is the enemy and should be d... |
And then I like to say fascism is just totalitarianism for profit. I just put that out there, I'm like "No, if you're doing totalitarianism, you create an us vs. them, and you create an enemy, and then you allow your followers to attack that enemy, and then you do it so that way you can make more money - you're a fasci... |
What I see is a whole bunch of science -- I've been talking about this since like around 2010. I think most open source projects are run kind of like little fascist regimes. I mean, Python and Linux call themselves like "the benevolent dictator for life"? They say it's a joke, but I don't know... Right? Those guys are ... |
What I see is I see these programmers who like somebody else being in charge, they like watching their rivals be demolished or exploited or slandered, and they assume it will never happen to them because they are part of the community, they're a part of it... So they serve this sort of fascism. And it's a very gentle f... |
Oh, my favorite is when they say they're gonna win. Like, "Oh, JavaScript is gonna take over the entire world. We're gonna win." I'm like, "Why do you wanna destroy all other programming languages? That's so weird. That's something that only fascists say." |
So what I see is, yeah, sure, I think corporations are taking advantage of programmers, but I think there's so many servile fascists in programming that they kind of agree with it and they kind of like it, and so there's no way to fix it. There's no way you're gonna stop them. There's no fix, it's just how they are, an... |
**Break:** \[59:02\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Zed, is the cat-v link to Rails is a Ghetto - is that the canonical? Google says it is, I'm just curious if that's what you-- |
**Zed Shaw:** Cat-v? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Harmful.cat-v.org is where the main Rail is a Ghetto links to; it's by "Zed's so effing awesome." |
**Zed Shaw:** Actually, I think that shouldn't be out there. |
**Jerod Santo:** Is that rehosted, or something? |
**Zed Shaw:** No, I took it down, so I'm gonna have to sue that person and make him take it down. |
**Jerod Santo:** Was it on your personal site back then? |
**Zed Shaw:** Yeah, it was on my personal site. |
**Jerod Santo:** Is it down? Did you take it down? |
**Zed Shaw:** No, I think people should be allowed to move on with their lives, right? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It's not supposed to be on the internet anymore, and we can't link to it anywhere? |
**Zed Shaw:** Go ahead and link wherever you want, that's fine. It is ancient history in a lot of ways... Like, yeah, I wrote that, but that's like ten years ago, right? |
**Jerod Santo:** It's gotta be more than ten. |
**Zed Shaw:** Yeah, so it's time to move on. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I was a way different person in 2007, just so you know... So I agree with you. |
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