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**Zed Shaw:** Yeah, me too. |
**Jerod Santo:** Oh, we all were. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I'm thinking just more for like if the listeners are like "What the heck were they talking about? Is there a link to it?" Because we will get yelled at for not having links to things, especially something they wanna dig into. It's like, "Well..." |
**Zed Shaw:** I would say go ahead. You know, I am sort of honest about myself, and I did write that, so if you link to it, it's no problem. |
I'm gonna contact this person and tell him to take it down, because I own the copyright. You can also probably find it on archive.org, and a few other things... But yeah, I mean, if you do, I would say preface it with "Zed took this down because he wanted to move on with his life. This is Zed circa 2008, and he is diff... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, sure. |
**Zed Shaw:** Because I would say, yeah, I was making fun of people who are overweight in there, and I don't agree with that; I was saying a lot of pretty terrible things. But at the time, it was sort of like this cathartic -- like, I just wrote how I felt at the time, and part of that was I actually was being threaten... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** We don't have to link to it... I mean, they can google it. One thing, Zed, for us, is we're definitely about lifting people up rather than putting people down, so our goal is not to shame you, nor do we want to perpetuate you being shamed... So it could be googled, and that's something that's not ex... |
**Zed Shaw:** Yeah, it's not problem. But you know, I will say, I have no problem with people disagreeing with me and telling me why they disagree with me. I don't know, I come from a different era, I think, where like you can disagree with someone and not hate them or think they're a terrible person. You can have wond... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right, I think the line between disagreement and hate and dislike has gotten to some degree closer. |
**Zed Shaw:** Yes, yes. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Because I don't agree with what you say doesn't mean I don't like you, or I can't show you love, or be kind, or help you, or serve you, or do something for you, or be there for you when you need somebody. Because I don't like the way you do things doesn't mean I don't like you. |
**Zed Shaw:** Right, exactly. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** But you know, people think that way. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[01:04:07.15\] I know, I don't get it, too... I think, Zed, probably just looking at your career, I probably trail you by 5 or 10 years maybe, because you were writing Mongrel I was just learning how to write code back then... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Me too. |
**Jerod Santo:** So you said maybe it's your age, or maybe just the generation that you're from, but like... I don't get offended when people disagree with me, and vice versa. I just feel like that's life, like discourse; that's how we learn and grow, and live. We don't have to at all. Some of that leads back into the ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** We should start there, because we almost ended that last segment with me saying that I disagree with Zed. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I mean, if we didn't have to end the segment for time-wise, I would said-- |
**Jerod Santo:** You just would have said "I disagree" and then end it. \[laughs\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I just don't agree... \[laughs\] Because that's your experience. |
**Zed Shaw:** Yeah, so this is the thing - I'm not saying it's a blanket statement on every programmer... |
**Jerod Santo:** Sure. |
**Zed Shaw:** However, I do think that it is very endemic in how the tools work, how the writing has been, how the industry has been run... I think it's just there so much, it's so everywhere that they don't even notice it a lot of times. And also, I think a lot of these people are like "Oh, I'm totally not like that",... |
So there's two types. When I say a servile fascist, I don't mean someone who's out there doing it -- I mean, it can be someone who actually really enjoys it and supports the regime, and goes along with it, and never disagrees with them, or someone who allows the regime to do what it's doing, or the corporation doing wh... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, let me present this angle, because -- and I've never been around the circles wherein you are disagreeing with Python and somebody's attacking you, so I can't give the contextual thing... But I think I was reading Rails is a Ghetto back in '08 or whatever, and I was in the Rails community back the... |
**Zed Shaw:** \[01:07:56.16\] I agree. I actually tell people "Don't help me", because the collateral damage to people who help me is pretty great. So I tell people "Hey, don't worry. I can take care of myself." But if we're talking about the general population, open source projects, things like that, then you don't re... |
I'll give you a really good example from Python. There was this project by Aaron Swartz called web.py. And web.py was great. They made Reddit with it; originally, they did Reddit in Scheme, and then I guess they did it in this, and Aaron Swartz was working there. And it was awesome; it was so cool, it worked really wel... |
At one point, I guess Guido (the benevolent dictator for life for Python) tried it and he decided that it was terrible, because it had too much magic. So rather than someone saying "Hey, aren't you supposed to support people in the community and not trash people's projects? Because you are supposed to be the benevolent... |
**Jerod Santo:** Really? I thought it was just metaprogramming... |
**Zed Shaw:** No... Like, they still did metaprogramming. Go look at Django - its ORM is tons of metaprogramming... But what they did is to make it not seem like magic, you had to type "render to template", and then there was another one "render to template with session or context." It was crazy. I'm like "Why can't I ... |
And you can also say magic is just -- like, what's that quote...? "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." So you can say the opposite is the only reason you think something's magic is because you're uneducated. So these are people who are saying like "That's magic!" I'm like, "Well, you'... |
So I think that's a really good example. Nobody really stood up for him. I remember I was one of the few people who were like "That's stupid. This thing works great." I put it in my book - people ranted at me. "Why are you putting it in your book? You should choose another project that doesn't have any magic." I'm like... |
**Jerod Santo:** What was the specific things done there? Because on the other side of that coin, Guido has the right to his opinion on software, and because of his position, it makes sense that people respect his opinion... So there's like a natural leadership there that doesn't seem counter-productive. And again, I'm... |
**Zed Shaw:** Not really. |
**Jerod Santo:** Because it's just style-based, or...? |
**Zed Shaw:** No, it was because he didn't like the way that it used these features of Python that were metaprogramming. That's it. That was all it was. |
**Jerod Santo:** Didn't he write those features? |
**Zed Shaw:** Yeah, that's the thing. |
**Jerod Santo:** He should have left the metaprogramming out maybe. |
**Zed Shaw:** It's like, well okay, if you don't like that, then just don't have that ability, right? What it was though is some projects could do magic, but not this project could do magic. He had no problem with magic in all these other things, he has no problem with magic being done throughout the Python libraries..... |
\[01:11:50.05\] And then, the actual point of the discussion - yeah, you're right, Guido is in charge, whatever. We're talking about people being servile fascists. So everyone who just went "Sure. Yup. Alrighty" and agreed with him and then also went on the offensive and banished all magic from their projects, and tota... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[laughs\] It's kind of like brainwashing or mindless followership. |
**Zed Shaw:** Yes, it is. And the thing is the slickest form of that is the kind where people don't realize they are, and they just sort of believe it, and it's endemic everywhere, and they just think that's normal. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, you had me worried, because I was worried that I was some of these people, not even knowing it... I'm not, obviously, but you had me concerned that somewhat I was brainwashed and I'm just unwillingly out there as a fascist. |
**Zed Shaw:** Yeah, and you know, actually, I think fascist is the wrong word, but there's not much of another word. I could say totalitarianism, but that's typically not with a profit motive. The reason all these people are doing this is they all hope to make a piece of the pie; they all hope to make some amount of mo... |
But in the same way, I mean, yeah, sure, not everyone in a fascist regime is totally fascist... Yeah, they're not totally fascist, but if they're allowing it to happen, maybe they're servile. They're just sort of like going along with it, because "Hey, they're not coming after me." |
**Jerod Santo:** So I'm trying to think of some of the things here... So self-identification seems to be a -- I'm trying to think of the drivers of this, and I'm... You have a lot more experience with maybe pointing this out in your own mind, or pinpointing like "That's what this activity is" than I do, so I'm like ver... |
**Zed Shaw:** I can give you a super good example. |
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