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And then I'll say it again - one day we just looked up and we'd gone from a bunch of "No" to a bunch of super-fans inside of GitHub. We have cheerleaders. If you go out and look on Twitter right now, the day after we kind of announced Codespaces to the world, they were just like -- GitHubbers were out there very enthus... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. I saw a tweet from Kelsey Hightower - again, I'll mention Kelsey... I don't know if this tweet was actually towards Codespaces or the announcement, but the timing - it was the same day, I believe, so I think it was a subtweet around it, but he said "Back in the day we wrote code on our own com... |
**Cory Wilkerson:** I saw that, too. I mean, you used to run your server in a grey tower, beige tower underneath your desk too, right? Those days are gone, it kind of feels like. This is this next wave - we're now moving development environments out into the cloud. It just feels to me like two years from now we're gonn... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You mentioned a bunch of No's in the adoption flow... At what point was Nat a believer in Codespaces? |
**Cory Wilkerson:** You know, Nat holds a very high bar. I remember, as we were trying to get GitHub running inside of Codespaces, I'd go back to Nat and we'd show him "Hey, now instead of 45 minutes it's 20 minutes. We've made these changes." And he was like "That's super-cool. Not good enough." And we totally agreed,... |
I think Nat has been a believer in where this thing could go, from kind of the outset of the journey. It's just been a bit of a slug as we worked from the very early days of like "Look, we have all this tech orchestrated that can produce this effect of a Codespace", maybe the early prototype, down to now the ten second... |
\[28:08\] But the good news is most of that - almost all of that now - has made it into the product itself. So the changes that we've discovered along the way didn't just benefit GitHub/GitHub and the github.com repository, it benefitted the entire product. I think Nat's a super-fan now. I've got some screenshots from ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Even in your blog post you took us on a journey from (I think) hours to 45 minutes, to 5 minutes, from 5 minutes to 10 seconds... So I don't wanna gloss -- I've got a question around 5 to 10 seconds, but I don't wanna gloss over the full journey. Is there anything in the hours to 45 minutes, to 5 mi... |
**Jerod Santo:** Shallow cloning it sounds like was a win... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Cory Wilkerson:** Shallow cloning was a big one, yeah. When I first got involved in this and I would just try to start a Codespace, I would sit there for 20 minutes staring at my terminal while I waited for the clone to complete into a Codespace. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** This is like gigs, right? 13 gigs for github.com? |
**Cory Wilkerson:** Yeah, 13 gigs. Yeah. And that's no way to -- I mean, honestly, I can't believe we had the perseverance to do this. I was spinning up tons and tons of Codespaces, just kind of watching this churn, getting more and more frustrated... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You wasted your time so no one else would -- I mean you wasted a lot of your time so no else did. |
**Cory Wilkerson:** That's right. That's my love for Codespaces, and there was no balance. I've put in a lot of time, trying to get to the point where I could say "This thing works." So yeah, shallow caching was, I think, a big step forward for us, where we went from 45 down to like 20 minutes or something like that. |
The next big leap for us was caching as much of the bootstrap activity as we could well ahead of time in a GitHub Action. So we have a nightly job that runs, and basically sets up 95% of our environment. That got us down to super-tight times. And then the final step was this idea of pre-built. So when a Codespace is pr... |
The thing is built. It's ready to go. There's really no startup time. You just connect the pre-built image to compute, and you're off and running. And that was kind of the last frontier for us in terms of speed. Now, we're gonna continue to invest in speed. I've said this a few times to folks recently, but fast and rel... |
Pre-builds right now - I'll just go ahead and share that it's currently in beta, so we're onboarding customers in the prebuilds, where we're working with customers directly on their pre-build experience. We'll be getting this out to market relatively soon. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, because this is the story of GitHub using Codespaces. That doesn't mean that every enterprise that is in this sweet spot, that has a large enough organization, that has the scale of an organization that can actually leverage time savings. Sure, small teams might win, potentially by going to th... |
**Cory Wilkerson:** Yeah, I think that's why we launched with teams and enterprises first. It fits that use case super-well, no doubt about it. There's lots of Docker competency in those organizations, container competency etc. But I would also say that it's very easy to get started with Codespaces. I don't wanna scare... |
\[31:59\] So we've done the discovery, and then we've captured that in the product itself. So even if you don't know anything about Docker containers, for instance, you can launch a Codespace today and it drops you kind of a default image that has the tooling for so many frameworks that you're used to working with - No... |
And then we maintain a community-powered repository. VS Code Dev Containers is the name of the repository, where there are -- I don't have a number off-hand, but let's say hundreds of community-powered images that you can reference in your dev container.json, and launch immediately into an environment that's well-suite... |
**Jerod Santo:** So the discrepancy in the numbers - you have a thousand engineers and 600 on Codespaces. So are there 400 holdouts, or does it not apply to them, or what's the situation with these 400 stragglers? |
**Cory Wilkerson:** Yeah, it's a good question. Our efforts have been primarily focused on GitHub-GitHub. The core github.com repository. There are literally thousands of repositories inside of GitHub, probably hundreds of active repositories, so we need to go win the rest of GitHub's business. |
The story right now has been primarily focused on the majority of development inside of GitHub, and that's through .com. I think I mentioned this earlier too, but the intent is sometime in September to kind of sunset macOS development as the officially supported platform and pour all of our energy into Codespaces for .... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** This is a big push too even internally. I think you mentioned a little bit in your blog post the macOS-centric nature. Even I guess the challenge of the transition was pulling away from a macOS-centric dev environment to something that was more Linux-based, Linux VMs that are being run inside of Cod... |
**Cory Wilkerson:** Yeah, I think the years and years and years of assumptions that we're always gonna develop on macOS, right...? And it's interesting, because you think about CI, for instance - you try to get CI as close to your production, resembling your production environment as possible, so that you're guaranteed... |
So the good news here is that we didn't have to convert anyone to a Unix platform. In fact, maybe those on Unix are also quite happy now, because they can continue to use Unix platforms... But you stick on macOS, you use VS Code, or you use VS Code in a browser. It's the web UI for Codespaces. You're able to stay in yo... |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. And your fans probably aren't running at top speed. |
**Cory Wilkerson:** \[35:54\] Exactly, yes. A lot of this is just kind of strange, suddenly. You're just like "This is all kind of working together." |
**Jerod Santo:** I'm used to my laptop being on fire while I'm developing, and it's no longer the case. |
**Cory Wilkerson:** Yes, right. Docker is not running on my desktop. Docker is running out on a cloud. It's just a really cool moment and experience. And I had some skepticism around this workflow because of prior experiences I'd had out there some number of years ago using cloud-based development environments. They di... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Cory Wilkerson:** But I haven't felt any of that in Codespaces. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So you mentioned that the lens that you're speaking from here today and the blog posts that you've put out so far is around github.com development. So there's hundreds, thousands (I can't recall what you said) repos being used inside of GitHub, so is it safe to say that as organizations adopt and us... |
**Cory Wilkerson:** You know, I don't think so necessarily. I think this is just a -- I just asked someone one the team a couple days ago to pull the list of repositories that have been active with Codespaces over the past couple of weeks, and there were dozens that have now started -- at least started to explore, if n... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Easy. |
**Cory Wilkerson:** ...fairly easy. There's still some effort. But it feels like we now have a great point of reference for other people to latch on and adopt. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** When you have a 13 gigabyte repository with a lot of dependencies, and a lot of engineers - 600 engineers at least, based upon this smaller sample size of a thousand engineers within your organization. That's significant. |
**Cory Wilkerson:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's gonna be hard to get onto a whole new paradigm for developing everyday software. |
**Cory Wilkerson:** I think so, too. You've gotta do it though -- like, you win the business because you build a better tool. I think that's what it boils down to. It shouldn't be about necessarily preference. What you want is value and productivity. Do we build a better experience, and can we actually become the prefe... |
And it's not just like "Oh, I've taken my laptop now and I've moved it out to the cloud." In fact, I think we discourage that model. I don't want you just to recreate your laptop in the cloud. That doesn't make a ton of sense for us. When I say "us", I mean developer community. We want to be able to work in parallel en... |
**Jerod Santo:** So let's revisit this dot feature, which is very exciting. You're on github.com and you're on a repo. For example, I have the fzf repo open. Right now I'm looking at the readme... And you hit the period button, the dot on your keyboard. Explain what happens. |
**Cory Wilkerson:** \[40:04\] Yeah. I mean, that is -- right now I don't know that we've given it an official name. Behind the scenes we refer to this as the web editor inside of GitHub. Many people have called it github.dev, a few have called it Codespaces. But the idea was we're launching Codespaces, we know it's wel... |
So when you hit that dot button today, you move into VS Code, kind of multi-file editing experience... So that's fully functional VS Code and the browser, attached to a repository, and from that repository you're able to do basically any kind of Git operation. So you can open a PR in that space, you can make changes in... |
Where it falls short -- what we don't do here is offer compute. So you can't actually execute the code that's in that environment. There's not a terminal in that environment. And those things we offer up in Codespaces itself, So the next story for us is like "How do we connect these environments?" We want you to be abl... |
So to answer the question, .dev is kind of a multi-file editing experience and you have the best editor on the planet as far as I'm concerned in the browser, and it's something that folks have wanted from GitHub from quite some time. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, this has now become the de facto way that I will peruse some source code on GitHub. I used to just sit there and click through the little slide-by file browser thing... And it had some cool stuff, like the Cmd+T, or the integration fuzzy finder stuff in that UI. But why do that now? You just hit ... |
**Cory Wilkerson:** I think it's awesome, too. We saw the same experience inside of GitHub. So we built the thing, we shared it internally, and we said "Can a few people use this and kind of give us your feedback and experience? Tell us where it needs to improve." |
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