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**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, dream with us... Where is this gonna go? |
**Cory Wilkerson:** Yeah, I'll go so far as to say - I think the majority of the industry is probably using this model five years from now. That actually feels pretty far out to me. There are a lot of people in this space right now kind of pursuing the same kind of thing, and I think what we're gonna see is just a lot ... |
I think the first folks we'll see, the early adopters are gonna be really high-performance engineering teams that look to get every ounce of productivity and value creation out of their engineers that they can find, on a daily basis. They understand that productivity loss is bad for the individual, it's bad for the bus... |
\[56:15\] Other large shops - I think actually Google is well-known for their CIDER web-based IDE that they've used, that they love, as far as I understand. They provide some of these same capabilities internal to Google. So the early adopters are ready there, in many ways. I think GitHub brings this out to the entire ... |
So I really do think it's gonna be -- I'll say this... You see GitHub engineers coming into the industry right now. They're coming straight out of school, straight into GitHub, and this is how they're starting their development experience. This is the way they know how to develop now. And we're gonna see this more and ... |
**Jerod Santo:** What happens if that environment goes away? It seems like you're hung out to dry if GitHub is down, or your credit card expires and you lose access... |
**Cory Wilkerson:** Jerod, trust me, I've heard this question many times as we were ramping developers onto GitHub. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] |
**Cory Wilkerson:** I feel like I have a perfect response for that. |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay. |
**Cory Wilkerson:** First, we will continue to invest in being fast and reliable, no doubt about it. This thing has to be -- Microsoft has this language, "dial tones." It's a bit out of date, but it's gotta be constantly on, all the time. What we've done internally, in the event that we were to lose access to Codespace... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So if a GitHubber was on a flight, which in this day and age is strange and anxiety-filled, but I'm sure one day we'll get to a point where it's less so - you're gonna wanna code; you're gonna wanna be productive on that flight. Is that how they do it then? |
**Cory Wilkerson:** That would be the path that we would use right now. Yeah, that would be the path. I mean, maybe the platform evolves to some point where -- you can imagine, we have VS Code, right? That's something that we work on... And you can say "Well, with a Codespaces user, how do I pull this environment down ... |
And we've used it a few times now, because Codespaces has been down, but because we have folks that aren't ready to move it on certain repositories where they don't feel like moving it, they wanna use Sublime still, or whatever the use case is... We maybe haven't won the business of one or two engineers yet... So it's ... |
**Jerod Santo:** How integral to all of this is VS Code? It sounds like it has to be there. I know you've enabled Vim people and Emacs people to connect via SSH, but that seems like a workaround, or like a "Here you go, guys. Here's something." |
**Cory Wilkerson:** Yeah, VS Code I think will always kind of be the premier client in Codespaces. It's the paved path that we have right now. Today it's essential to the experience. We do have a number of Vim and Emacs users internally, and we wanna win their business as well, and we've done the work inside of GitHub ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[01:00:29.27\] Nice. |
**Cory Wilkerson:** So that's a very important thing for us to pursue. |
**Jerod Santo:** One thing VS Code has done which is awesome is a language server protocol, really separating the implementations of those, of the highlighting and the syntax stuff into this protocol that you can then plug into. And then everybody who's doing -- you know, maybe I'm in charge of Golang, and I just had t... |
**Cory Wilkerson:** Yeah, I would say that's an interesting thought and probably something that we would explore at some point, like Vim itself being Codespaces-aware. I like the way that you're thinking, Jerod. |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, because there are a lot of people that just will not use VS Code, and you just wonder, will you just leave them in the dust, eventually? ...because how integral is it -- I understand that today it's a bastion -- it's a huge part of it... But is that wise on the long-term? Because we're trying to ... |
**Cory Wilkerson:** Absolutely. It's early days, I would say; stay tuned on what we're doing here. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Cory Wilkerson:** The work that we're doing inside of GitHub right now to support Vim and Emacs users, the story does not stop inside of GitHub. We have no intent to just say "This works just for GitHub." That's not where the story goes. We want as many people on Codespaces. We think this is the future, the way that ... |
Right now, the super-paved path is VS Code, no doubt about it. But if the focus is productivity, the focus is on building kind of the next generation of developer tooling, we've got to go support additional clients as well. |
**Jerod Santo:** For sure. Yeah, I guess my thoughts around VS Code -- I mean, it's an amazing piece of technology... |
**Cory Wilkerson:** It is. |
**Jerod Santo:** ...and my concern with it on the long-term, as I see more and more things going in there, is eventually -- you know, Microsoft Word had too many features, in my humble opinion. So my concern is VS Code over time is like "How well will that be maintained?" And I'm sure the motivations are there and the ... |
**Cory Wilkerson:** Yeah, all I can say is the VS Code team is super-passionate about what they build, no doubt about it. |
**Jerod Santo:** Totally. |
**Cory Wilkerson:** We work closely with those guys and they have remarkable taste, that entire team, from top to bottom. They've won business because of their taste and commitment to developers. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. And I'm not trying to take anything away from them. Like I said, it's amazing and it's impressive, and we spoke with those folks on the show before, and I couldn't agree more with you. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** Just on the long arc of technology, things do change over time, so I would just like to see, are there options? Is there escape hatches? |
**Cory Wilkerson:** Sure, understood. |
**Jerod Santo:** Do we have a heterogeneous -- does it all have to be one thing in the future, or do we have options as developers? |
**Cory Wilkerson:** Yeah, Codespaces at the end of the day, I'll just say - we're running development containers in the cloud. That's kind of the core of the product. VS Code today provides the kind of premium path into that. |
**Jerod Santo:** Totally. |
**Cory Wilkerson:** We wanna meet developers where they are, no doubt about it. There's no question about that. I feel very fortunate to work closely with VS Code people and watch them work, the and the work that they've done today... And what's made them special is just their conviction in building something fantastic... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, Cory, thank you for sharing the story, giving us a preview of the future, I suppose even the now and the future, really... |
**Cory Wilkerson:** Join us. We would love to work with you, to help you, Adam, get your product up and running on Codespaces. |
**Jerod Santo:** Let's do it. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** We do entertain that, for sure. We have a whole entire show called Ship It that's really about taking our application to production, and I kind of feel like this is somewhat there, because it's where a developer meets going to production, which is actually coding... So I think we'd love to dig deepe... |
**Cory Wilkerson:** Let's ship it. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, Gerhard has been talking about us doing our coding in some sort of cloud setup for a while. I've always told him, "Man, the client's not ready for us. You're gonna pry this terminal out of my cold, dead hands." But things change, and I can change too, so that'd be fun to dig into that a little bi... |
**Cory Wilkerson:** I am totally up for the challenge. Let's get together and try to ship it. |
**Jerod Santo:** Nice. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Alright... Cory, thank you so much. It was awesome. |
**Cory Wilkerson:** Thank you. Thank you. |
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