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[1410.78 --> 1419.28] twitter and trello make extensive use of vim's h j k and l navigation keys some people love it |
[1419.28 --> 1425.92] others not so much but it's definitely a phenomenon worth knowing about here's gary's take on vim mode |
[1425.92 --> 1432.84] i used a couple of emacs vim minor modes in the old times so i learned their strengths and weaknesses i |
[1432.84 --> 1439.02] used some kind of browser vim thing a while back it was i think before vimium found it to be kind of |
[1439.02 --> 1442.88] buggy because the browser was never designed to do that right and i've tried vim emulations in a few |
[1442.88 --> 1449.64] graphical editors but all of those it took me only a couple minutes to hit a number of things that were |
[1449.64 --> 1454.04] missing you know and that's because i know vim proper so well i want weird stuff like if it doesn't |
[1454.04 --> 1459.96] have colon g or whatever i'm gonna be frustrated now with that said a good vim emulation will get you |
[1459.96 --> 1465.36] the ergonomic benefits of vim which i think are the most important benefits you will have less risk to |
[1465.36 --> 1470.88] your hands and your wrists and if you don't know vim proper then you can use an emulation and get |
[1470.88 --> 1475.54] those benefits and not be frustrated but if you are an expert vim user you're probably going to miss all |
[1475.54 --> 1480.46] the things that aren't there and when you think about what vim is it makes sense that the emulations |
[1480.46 --> 1487.56] are always lacking because vim is about 400 000 lines of c code i checked before we started recording and |
[1487.56 --> 1491.36] it was written over three decades and then there's all the vim script on top of that like that is a lot of |
[1491.36 --> 1495.96] code it's not just a couple dozen normal mode commands that you can implement in a little |
[1495.96 --> 1500.74] plug-in and then be done so those couple dozen normal mode commands will get you a lot of the |
[1500.74 --> 1505.12] ergonomic benefit but it's still it's not vim and the better you know vim the less that's going to |
[1505.12 --> 1509.56] satisfy you i know that built into facebook and built into twitter because it's built by nerds |
[1509.56 --> 1514.10] you know you can actually use jk to flip through tweets and like post that's cool i already know how to |
[1514.10 --> 1518.38] use voiceover on mac the screen reader because you know i am like a big accessibility advocate |
[1518.38 --> 1523.20] and that to me is just how you write non-broken software you make it accessible and you test it |
[1523.20 --> 1527.22] so to me like i'm much more i think i'm much more productive in that because that's what it was sort |
[1527.22 --> 1530.46] of designed for whereas i think that a lot of these things are kind of this weird kind of shim |
[1530.46 --> 1536.06] and it doesn't make a lot of sense vscode feels really bad in vim mode for me i don't know why i |
[1536.06 --> 1539.80] think it's just because it's just nowhere near as responsive and so you know you're hitting jk and |
[1539.80 --> 1544.48] you're just like it doesn't feel the same it feels like someone's kind of pretending and pulling the |
[1544.48 --> 1548.90] the ropes behind the scenes so um i kind of just abandoned that and i was like if i'm going to use |
[1548.90 --> 1555.26] vscode i'm going to lead into the vscode paradigm i've used a mode and i think i've used it in vscode |
[1555.26 --> 1561.36] i've used it in adam i've used it in sublime i've used it in telly j oh wow and i found it fine like |
[1561.36 --> 1565.12] because i don't know how to type otherwise like it doesn't work for me you know |
[1565.12 --> 1570.94] um so when i use those editors always the first thing i do is i install the vim mode yeah like i liked it |
[1570.94 --> 1576.38] one thing that i find really charming about vim is like in my email i can do like j and k to go |
[1576.38 --> 1581.82] between my emails like i think you find like little tiny bits of vim support in like lots of places and |
[1581.82 --> 1586.10] it feels like you're like a secret club do you know totally like in the club because you just |
[1586.10 --> 1590.68] like try it out and then it works and you're like oh wow thank you fast mail so i like that's nice |
[1590.68 --> 1594.82] so that's funny because that's actually a prerequisite for me using a mail app |
[1594.82 --> 1601.04] is that kind of nav because once i think gmail did it maybe not first but the first place i felt |
[1601.04 --> 1606.34] it i was like oh i can actually just use vim navigation to navigate and then i wanted to use |
[1606.34 --> 1610.94] although i hate gmail's interface altogether but i like that aspect of it i want to use a native mac |
[1610.94 --> 1616.10] client or something it's like the built-in mail app for mac can't get it done oh no which makes sense |
[1616.10 --> 1620.16] like mac os style things and so i go shopping for these other things and like it has to have like |
[1620.16 --> 1624.26] that's the first thing i test like can i use j and k to go up and down a list no okay you're not |
[1624.26 --> 1629.10] gonna be my mail client cancel so i'm with you and i feel like like remember the milk supported it |
[1629.10 --> 1633.40] back in the day i mean remember the milk is still around right but like i feel like once i used it |
[1633.40 --> 1637.68] and it supported it and i was like oh wow like i don't know it is kind of like an insider nerd club |
[1637.68 --> 1641.64] you're like oh you're one of us you know like whoever writes this is one of us and i like the |
[1641.64 --> 1647.18] software a little bit more because they like it yeah that's cool one place where i definitely expect |
[1647.18 --> 1653.96] to have vim-ish key bindings is in gmail actually uh you can use j and k to navigate up and down |
[1653.96 --> 1659.08] in your inbox i think it's enter to open even once you're looking at a message you can press j to |
[1659.08 --> 1663.32] go to the next message or k to go to the previous message i might have that back to front i think x |
[1663.32 --> 1669.30] will archive a message things like that it's reminiscent of vim definitely inspired by and |
[1669.30 --> 1673.94] yeah i was setting up a new gmail account the other day and hot keys weren't turned on and i felt quite |
[1673.94 --> 1679.30] at sea without them so that is one where i feel i depend on them that's funny because julia said the |
[1679.30 --> 1684.32] exact same thing and i'm in the exact same way really so we're three for three on people that |
[1684.32 --> 1689.42] like vim style navigation in email i'll take it anywhere any website that has it i'm always |
[1689.42 --> 1693.26] pleasantly surprised i'm like hey you can you know yeah they do this i think twitter even does it |
[1693.26 --> 1697.00] although i don't really use it there yeah for some reason i don't feel like a tweet has been selected |
[1697.00 --> 1700.74] you know i'm just kind of scrolling yeah but i think you can actually select a tweet and go |
[1700.74 --> 1706.62] jk up and down through them if you if you so fancy yeah yeah it's always fun to find vim in weird |
[1706.62 --> 1712.24] places and the more you look the more you will find vim or things that smell like it all over the |
[1712.24 --> 1718.84] place but why we've talked about aspects of vim that these four love but i also asked them |
[1718.84 --> 1725.52] specifically why exactly they think vim is so stinking popular i think that once you start feeling |
[1725.52 --> 1731.62] the benefits of using vim it becomes very sticky for you i mean you said that you still juggled the |
[1731.62 --> 1737.30] two different code editors right and so something changed but you still hanging on to it and i think |
[1737.30 --> 1741.58] that that actually says a lot um so i think it has that sticky factor once you start using it um |
[1741.58 --> 1745.88] the pessimistic take on this is that maybe it's some cost fallacy and you're like well i've invested |
[1745.88 --> 1749.68] so much in this i don't want to let it go i don't want to like forget all my shortcuts right that's a |
[1749.68 --> 1753.28] good take yeah and it's also the ubiquity as we talked about that seems to be my favorite word for |
[1753.28 --> 1760.44] this particular recording it's persistence as a tool on unix machines to get work done i like that it's |
[1760.44 --> 1764.72] just become traditionally part of the toolbox everywhere but even in like a modern context so |
[1764.72 --> 1769.16] consider like you're booting up a vanilla raspberry pi it's a pain in the butt to have to use like |
[1769.16 --> 1774.62] get a keyboard and a mouse and a monitor and do all that kind of thing and so even just flashing |
[1774.62 --> 1782.28] raspbian on a nsd card booting it up you throw it on your network on a switch you shell in and you're |
[1782.28 --> 1786.68] writing code right and so you can just like get started with vim and you're just not conserving a lot |
[1786.68 --> 1791.92] of resources on things like iot devices because again it's very performant and so i think there's |
[1791.92 --> 1796.40] a lot of modern context for using vim which is why it's stuck around and it's just nice to not have |
[1796.40 --> 1802.70] to use like an entire vnc server and like get yourself a gui in order to boot something up that is |
[1802.70 --> 1809.02] more of like a modern code editor if that makes sense and then the last thing i will say is that |
[1809.02 --> 1815.96] you have to admit it kind of still has that really cool like hollywood hacker movie aesthetic vibes to |
[1815.96 --> 1821.44] it right like you feel cool when you're using it because there are those leet connotations around |
[1821.44 --> 1826.22] it whether or not that's fair or not fair and so sometimes it just feels kind of nice to just use |
[1826.22 --> 1830.58] your terminal and not have anything else open right and you just live in the dream so this is all very |
[1830.58 --> 1835.78] opinionated it's not objective in any shape or form but that's how i feel about it you know |
[1835.78 --> 1842.14] vim is the best text editor that anyone ever wrote that was widely used but i mean that in a more |
[1842.14 --> 1847.04] narrow way than it probably sounds so every editor is going to be good at something right there's a |
[1847.04 --> 1851.94] reason that every editor was written even like nano was written because it's small and easy to install |
[1851.94 --> 1857.32] right if you want to spend your whole career customizing an editor to match you exactly you |
[1857.32 --> 1861.84] probably want emacs if you want really deep language support with automated refactorings and debuggers |
[1861.84 --> 1867.00] and all that you probably want a full-on ide if you want a text editor that is extremely efficient |
[1867.00 --> 1872.44] at editing text and maybe not quite as good at some other things as other editors might be then vim is |
[1872.44 --> 1877.06] the best solution and there's really not any kind of runner up for editing efficiency unless it's |
[1877.06 --> 1880.62] something that it looks a lot like vim that's why it's still popular that's why it's been popular for |
[1880.62 --> 1887.56] 50 years is because it's so efficient and anything that approaches it basically looks like vim vim has a |
[1887.56 --> 1892.68] lot going for it ubiquity a powerful grammar that builds on itself it's hackable there's a huge |
[1892.68 --> 1898.14] community around it but it's not all rainbows and unicorns i just had to ask these four what |
[1898.14 --> 1903.64] frustrates them the most about vim what don't they like about it here's drew one of the things i think |
[1903.64 --> 1909.16] vim doesn't do very well is you know having files that have more than one language in them something |
[1909.16 --> 1915.70] like an html file with uh you know a bit of css and a bit of javascript mixed in it's quite a common |
[1915.70 --> 1921.66] scenario these days i mean vim does support it you can have you know you can have javascript syntax |
[1921.66 --> 1927.66] highlighting for the the script tags inside of an html file but i think the way vim has this idea of like |
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