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**Daniel Stenberg:** A little bit... Exactly as you say, now it's not only what I wanna do, but sometimes really what I have to do, or rather what I sign up to do, and now I really have to deliver, not just because I wanna do it in an afternoon. So of course, it becomes a little bit more serious... But I think so far i... |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] There's your drawback right there... |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Exactly. There's so many benefits and so much fun anyway, so I can take the few drawbacks with it. I'm enjoying it fully so far. |
**Jerod Santo:** So has your family and the rest of your life gained those night hours back, or do you just power through because you love it so much, and you're still working on it nights and weekends? |
**Daniel Stenberg:** I still do nights and weekends... But mostly nights, I would say. Not that much weekends, but mostly nights. It's also because I have a very established way of working, so basically I'm just keeping on the same way that I did before. Now I just do Curl daytime, and a few hours of my time as well. |
It works really good around the clockwise too, since then I can do stuff in the morning and late in the evening too, it works... So I can fire off some pull requests and they can run CI jobs, and stuff like that. So yeah, I think I have a pretty good rhythm. |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, it's worth noting that you had sustainability down, right? 21 years before you were full-time on this thing... So the last two years - just rough numbers; 23 now the project is - you've been working on it for a very long time. You've kind of been the picture, to me, of perseverance and open sourc... |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Certainly, yes. And not just life -- yeah, it's more or less my entire life, right? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I'd say... |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Older than my kids... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** 23+ years. |
**Jerod Santo:** I don't wanna ask you your age, but this might be like half of your life or more. |
**Daniel Stenberg:** It's approaching, yeah. I turn 50 this year, so yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay. So you're gonna get there. |
**Daniel Stenberg:** yes. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Wow. |
**Jerod Santo:** Pretty cool stuff. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** So now it's your full-time job. If you just set that aside and you told everybody -- because that's a very impressive accomplishment. To work on the same thing for that long is amazing. And I know we've asked you this before, but that was probably six years ago now, so you can share it with a whole new... |
**Daniel Stenberg:** It's really hard to -- I don't have any magic source or recipe... I just wanna make sure that it works, and I always want happy users, and I wanna have those features, and I wanna make sure that Curl remains a really powerful -- you know, the Swiss Army knife of internet transfers, really... And fo... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, it's a simple reason to keep going. I mean, you keep it simple at least. Motivation by the happiness of your users, keeping it working... I think that's a pretty humble approach to remaining motivated. I mean, you didn't say "Make millions of dollars." |
**Daniel Stenberg:** No, I didn't... \[laughs\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You know, this fantastic exit, or "By the way, Curl company just got announced" or something like that, where you've got -- I mean, I guess you do have professional support, and there probably is a company behind it, because that makes sense... But you're not saying "Well, I'm really trying to get t... |
**Daniel Stenberg:** \[12:07\] No. That would be a really weird way for me to -- |
**Jerod Santo:** \[unintelligible 00:12:08.29\] roundabout path... \[laughter\] |
**Daniel Stenberg:** ...inefficient way to get to that goal. So no, that's really not -- I mean, of course, I want money as anyone else does, but that's not what drives me, that's not what makes me get up in the morning and stay up late at night. |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, 23 years is a long time, and then over time you've changed your opinions about some things... Now, it doesn't feel like it's been three years since we've talked, because I'm an avid reader of your blog, and you blog pretty prolifically; you have lots of writings out there... And you've had a bit ... |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Yes. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yes. And you wrote a post a few years ago now - maybe 4-5 years ago - Curl is C. Then you wrote a post more recently about all of the vulnerabilities, and how many of those are because of the C programming language, and just the sharp edges and corners you were able to cut yourself on... And now you're... |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Yeah... I'm not sure I've changed -- maybe refined it. I've grown into a viewpoint where I think the future could be for Curl. I mean Curl is C; it has been C for 23 years, and I foresee that it's going to be C for a very long time ahead as well, for several reasons. But I do think that there's sud... |
**Jerod Santo:** I see. |
**Daniel Stenberg:** And one of my more recent efforts sponsored by ISRG, the ones behind LetsEncrypt, is to make sure that we can actually build Curl now with an HTTP backend written in Rust called Hyper... Which is then we replace parts of the built-in HTTP powers of Curl with a Rust written library instead. We do th... |
**Jerod Santo:** That's interesting... We did have Josh Aas from the LetsEncrypt project on the show a while back, and he was very passionate about replacing a lot of internet infrastructure projects with memory-safe languages, specifically Rust... And he has gone about doing some of that work, working with I think the... |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Exactly. And what it is - it's an option to build Curl with Hyper, instead of the built-in HTTP and HTTP/2 support; so you would use that library instead. |
**Jerod Santo:** Gotcha. |
**Daniel Stenberg:** I foresee a future where we can do this with more things. And in effect, that is replacing C with some other language. At the same time, I also think there's good value in it remaining C too, because by having a C library, it also provides the power of Curl and Libcurl to a really, really large com... |
\[16:03\] So I also think there's still a -- and you know, having a solid and proven and tested C library is also valuable for all those platforms; they can't switch to Rust anyway, so they would go between using my library, that I claim is fairly well-tested and reasonably secure, compared to using something else that... |
**Jerod Santo:** It's worth noting that when you say "It runs in a lot of places", you're not exaggerating. I mean, it runs on an unfathomable number of devices, right? |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Yeah, it's insane. I used to mentione the number ten billion installations, which - that's more installations than humans on the planet, right? But that's also because I've switched -- I probably did that even the last time we talked... And I talk about installations these days and not number of us... |
**Jerod Santo:** Sure. What about the platforms themselves though? I know you used to post when you'd find it in some new weird embedded place... Wasn't that the Times Square, on the New York Stock Exchange, or -- I don't know, like weird places that you'd find Curl being used. |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Yeah... It's really everywhere these days. |
**Jerod Santo:** How about Mars? |
**Daniel Stenberg:** I'm trying to get it confirmed that it's actually used in space, but I've failed so far... Amusingly, I've been emailed twice by NASA people, and I've asked both of them about it, but none of them would respond to that question. |
**Jerod Santo:** Come on, we need some confirmation... |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Probably the wrong people to ask, and they asked me about some other lame stuff anyway... But still, I'm trying to figure that out. \[laughter\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I think it's safe to assume it though. I mean, there's tech in space... |
**Jerod Santo:** Are they using web protocols? Probably... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** But I guess, do you have HTTP in space? It's the most known protocol; they've got networking there, I'm sure, right? There's gotta be computers networked together somehow. Did they create their own protocol? Possibly... |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Yeah, I would imagine that it actually exists and it's used in some -- I mean, at least in local area networks... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** On ISS (The International Space Station), for sure... |
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