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**Daniel Stenberg:** Yeah, exactly, like ISS (The International Space Station), and stuff like that. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** They've gotta communicate... |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** There's gotta be something. |
**Jerod Santo:** Why don't you just add a little phone home in there, and then you'll find out. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Then you'll know. Telemetry. |
**Jerod Santo:** Let yourself know... \[laughs\] |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Yeah, I'd love that... \[laughter\] |
**Jerod Santo:** I don't even know if you could have the servers that maintain that ping... If you have eight billion devices pinging you... |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Exactly. That would be an infrastructure... |
**Jerod Santo:** It's not a problem I'd wanna have... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Daniel, since you're somebody who's in the tooling space, as it relates to web servers, web, HTTP, do you share Josh's concerns about C and safety and replacing and all the things he said about that it's essentially -- I'm trying to paraphrase to some degree what he said in that episode at the end..... |
**Daniel Stenberg:** I think I'm in a general agreement that it is a good thing and a good idea and a worthy mission. But I also think that it's a really long-term job to go there... And sure, I think Rust is a worthy contender to use for a lot of that, but it's also a long way for Rust to go there to actually be that ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Daniel Stenberg:** But sure, I think we will go there at one point or another, but I think it's going to be a rather slow transition. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[20:00\] Another thing that maybe has been a slow transition - maybe not so slow - is new HTTP protocols. I know we've talked about QUIC with you last time you were on the show... Tell us about the state of the art; where are things? I know you're right on the bleeding edge; you often are testing thin... |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Right. I like to have it be on par with the new developments, so that we can use Curl a little bit as a tool to try out new protocol stuff, and at the same time that people that are developing the new servers of these protocols can also use Curl to try out the service. So HTTP/3 is coming -- I've s... |
**Jerod Santo:** That's what you're telling us right now, "Soon." \[laughter\] |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Exactly, soon. I've been saying it for years. "Soon." But this time it is actually soon... So now, HTTP/3 is a protocol on top of QUIC. QUIC is a TCP and TLS replacement. So we're going to throw out TCP and TLS and we're going to use QUIC instead. On top of that, we do HTTP/3. And both those protoc... |
Then there's another work going on with refreshing HTTP in general, and getting things done for generic HTTP. I think that is going to block the HTTP/3 spec slightly. |
**Jerod Santo:** What do you mean "generic HTTP"? What does that mean? |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Well, how to define HTTP in a version-independent way. How does headers and requests and everything work, ignore the transport over the wire... Because there's a lot of things in common between HTTP/1, /2 and /3. So that work is to make sure that we have a document that describes how HTTP works ind... |
**Jerod Santo:** They're like the lowest common denominator thing, or...? |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Yeah, pretty much like that. And then there are documents for describing each of these \[unintelligible 00:22:26.22\] |
**Jerod Santo:** They build on top of that, or they diverge where they have to. |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Exactly. Well, they sort of work together then, too. |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay... What's the benefit of having that document? |
**Daniel Stenberg:** I think it's primarily a clarification to make sure that we're all on the same page here. To understand that HTTP as a paradigm when I use it it doesn't really change; when we add HTTP/2 and HTTP/3, we primarily change how it's transferred over the wire, we don't really change how we think or use H... |
**Jerod Santo:** Gotcha. It's kind of for backwards compatibility, as well as clarification. |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Yes, I would say so. |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay, I didn't know that \[unintelligible 00:23:02.10\] |
**Daniel Stenberg:** So HTTP/3 is going to come soon... But we're still a bit off until we will see it really deployed, because this time around -- HTTP/2 was a bit slow and hard to get deployed everywhere, but HTTP/3 is going to be even more complicated. |
**Jerod Santo:** Oh, great... \[laughs\] Well, you're not painting the best picture of it... Is it better? Is it good? \[laughter\] |
**Daniel Stenberg:** It is certainly possible to get better, and I mean better as in lower latency and higher performance for at least a good chunk of all the use cases. But it's a different infrastructure now, since it's built on UDP, and there's a completely different way to use TLS... So all the TLS libraries are go... |
**Jerod Santo:** \[24:03\] So as a lowly application developer who just wants to get his JavaScript under your machine, I was very excited by the promise of HTTP/2, and that you don't have to bundle anymore; you don't have to put everything all in one file etc. Just send those little files... And that didn't seem like ... |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Exactly. |
**Jerod Santo:** Is HTTP gonna fulfill that promise? Does it have other promises? What are we gonna get out of this at the end of the day? |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Well, if HTTP/2 was only a minor boost for most of us, I think HTTP/3 is gonna be an even more minor boost for most of us. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] Okay... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You're really selling it here, Daniel... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah... What else should we talk about? \[laughter\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You're really selling it! |
**Jerod Santo:** Boring... \[laughter\] |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Yeah, I'm not selling it, because I'm not here to sell it. |
**Jerod Santo:** He's got nothing to sell, yeah... |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Exactly. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You're not getting that VC dollar, so no need to sell. |
**Daniel Stenberg:** We're certainly going to see the big guys use it. They're going to jump on it immediately, so of course we're going to see all the big ones... And the CDNs are going to use it, so we're going to see it deployed big time. But when you're a small player, if you just run a few servers for yourself, yo... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So to read between the lines, what you're saying is the end users, the Jerods of the world, the Adams of the world are not gonna get much benefit from this change; it's really the infrastructure that's gonna get the change, the big players... The edge nodes, the Cloudflares, the Googles... |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Yeah... |
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