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**Adam Stacoviak:** I had a curiosity, I had to go into Instagram's section where they do disclose their open source usages, and they do list them, it seems like, alphabetically -- no, it's not alphabetical. It's based on license even. The first list they have is BSD3, the second list they have is MIT, and the third li... |
**Jerod Santo:** Is it Libcurl? |
**Daniel Stenberg:** No, maybe they've changed that. I don't know. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It says "URL parser." Maybe that was the swap. I don't see the usage of Curl anymore. |
**Jerod Santo:** Maybe she contacted them and they had to take you out of there... |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Oh, no... The hacking ring. |
**Jerod Santo:** The hacking ring. \[laughter\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, there's that billion users. They're gone. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[unintelligible 00:35:08.12\] Well, that one's hilarious. This other story, quite a bit more somber, and tragic really, was the fella who really attacked you via email because he had gotten hacked... I remember that one was like "I will slaughter you." I mean, just terrible things being said to you be... |
**Daniel Stenberg:** I mean, it actually hit me pretty hard exactly when it happened, at least... Because it actually felt pretty horrible. And then I think I got over it pretty good. And then he emailed me more, and tried to post more on my blog, and so on. And then he appeared even more of a lunatic, and I think that... |
**Jerod Santo:** Less concerned, or more concerned? |
**Daniel Stenberg:** \[36:07\] Less concerned actually, because it then appeared more just deeply confused and rambling about whatever... And then I didn't really feel as threatened as-- |
**Jerod Santo:** Initially. |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Yeah, exactly. So I think I got over it. It just felt a sting of nastiness there for a while. And of course, I did a police report about it here in Sweden, but it doesn't do anything. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. I mean, they could be halfway around the world. It's hard on the internet, because you can't really gauge people at all. You can't tell if this person is serious, or trolling, or a lunatic, or seriously depressed, or what it is... But here it is in your inbox and you're left to just deal with thi... |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Yes. And in my case -- so I replied to his first email pretty instantly, and he replied to it again, and pretty much said that it wasn't a mistake, "I wasn't just rude, I'm meaning it." And I think that was what made me also take it slightly more seriously than just someone blurting out in the heat... |
**Jerod Santo:** Totally. It's just a numbers game, really. A sad numbers game. |
**Daniel Stenberg:** yes. |
**Jerod Santo:** And what was the case? Was it the case that his business had gotten hacked, or something? |
**Daniel Stenberg:** It was really, really not easy to understand... But someone he claimed that he had lost his business due to some hack, and he lost his entire life basically - his wife and his kids and his job and everything. And he seemed to blame me for something, but it wasn't really clear how or what... But app... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Daniel Stenberg:** It was really not easy to tell. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. I couldn't understand it from his -- because you posted some of his correspondence on your blog, and I was reading it, trying to decide "Was Curl in the user agent or the attacker's footprint, or was it in his business' CMS software stack?" I couldn't figure out what the guy was talking about. |
**Daniel Stenberg:** No, it wasn't really possible to understand exactly. You had to really make some guesses. So maybe, in some way, it was involved. I don't know. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Daniel Stenberg:** And of course, it is involved in a lot of shady stuff... |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. Well, it's a tool, and a tool can be used for good or evil, right? |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Yes. |
**Jerod Santo:** Ten billion users, or installs, or whatever that number is - more than every human on Earth, so you're gonna hit the good and the bad in the numbers. |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Yeah. And among all those users that I have - you know, I said Instagram, and Spotify, and stuff - I know a few really ugly malwares and attack softwares that are using Curl as well. I know for a fact that some of them, really nasty ones are using Curl, too. |
**Jerod Santo:** Does that weigh on your shoulders, or do you just kind of shrug it off, or what? |
**Daniel Stenberg:** It's sad and unfortunate, but there's really, really nothing I can do about it, no matter how much I wanted to. I just have to live with it. If you make a hammer, some bad guys will use that hammer for something really bad. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. Well, in your license you could put "You cannot use this for evil." |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Exactly. \[laughter\] So even if I had that, then would they care? |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, that's the thing, it only keeps the honest people honest, right? |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Right. |
**Jerod Santo:** The evil person does not care about your license. |
**Daniel Stenberg:** So no... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, so no. That does bring us to something that you can control a little bit more, but I bet it does have some weight on your shoulders, which is that there are vulnerabilities over time, and there are security disclosures, and there are serious things that are either in Curl's codebase, or inside of... |
**Daniel Stenberg:** \[39:55\] That's a good question. Of course, we have our fair share of security vulnerabilities. In two days we're going to do another Curl release, and I'm going to announce two more vulnerabilities. Usually, we do it like this - we have a bug bounty these days, so we reward security researchers, ... |
I think that's fine and good, because nowadays we can use sponsor money to pay researchers off -- or not off, but we reward them. So we get a fair share of reports on suspected vulnerabilities, and very few of them actually are confirmed in the end... But sure, eventually they are, and we make sure that we work with th... |
With this release coming Wednesday this week, we've handed out more than $5,000 now in bug bounties, and we're trying to gradually increase the amounts too, so that we can reward every new finding slightly more than previously. |
**Jerod Santo:** That's cool. Is that a new thing? |
**Daniel Stenberg:** It's a fairly new thing, because we started out -- we're using Open Collective these days to get/collect funds to the project, and we have a fair amount of recurring sponsors that are funding us monthly with money, and right now that's the biggest way to spend money, on the bug bounty... And we act... |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. |
**Daniel Stenberg:** So I think in this way we can actually get a little of their time and their attention to actually try to find problems in our product. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. That's a great usage of those kinds of funds... It's also transparent too, because you've gotta put out there how you paid or who you paid for X, and like you said, if they're gonna do that stuff anyways to pentest applications, or do bug bounty stuff, or security research, it makes sense to u... |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Yeah, I think it works out really good. And then, of course, when someone reports a problem, we confirm it and we can fix it; it fixes the problem for a lot of potential users/people that could be vulnerable for that problem. So it works out really good. And then I think over the few most recent ye... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. Speaking of a lot of people - we said earlier in the first part of the show that you've got a lot of users around the world, and one of the questions you have here is how you interact with that many stakeholders. You've mentioned before about how you keep motivated, which was a very humble por... |
**Daniel Stenberg:** Luckily for me - or maybe it's both an upside and a downside - I don't have that many stakeholders as it may sound like... Because most of my ten billion installations - they're done by users I never talked to, and they never contacted me, and I've never interacted with them at all. They're just us... |
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