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**Jerod Santo:** We'll talk to everybody next time. |
• Adam Stacoviak's background in software development, starting with Geocities and WordPress in 2004-2005 |
• Adam's transition from a personal blog to open source and entrepreneurship |
• Adam's experience with Sass and open source software |
• Adam's idea to create The Changelog podcast in 2009 |
• Jerod Santo's background in software development, starting with Napster and Winamp in the 90s |
• Jerod's experience with scripting and programming for the web, including contract software development |
• Jerod's discovery of Ruby on Rails and its impact on his career |
• The Changelog's early days and its growth into a popular podcast for developers |
• The Changelog's history and evolution |
• The impact of open source on the software world |
• The challenges of maintaining a high-quality podcast over 12 years |
• The changing landscape of open source, from niche to mainstream |
• The importance of community and staying true to the podcast's core values |
• The hosts discuss the "three Cs" of their podcast: Quality, Content, and Consistency |
• Adam Stacoviak invented the concept of the "three Cs" |
• The hosts struggle with consistency, particularly with scheduling and recording issues |
• They discuss the episode "A Protocol for Dying" with Pieter Hintjens, a notable open source developer with terminal cancer |
• Pieter Hintjens wrote a blog post of the same name and shared his thoughts on dying and legacy |
• The hosts reflect on the challenges of recording an episode with someone who was terminally ill and the emotional weight of saying goodbye to him after the episode |
• Discussion of a past podcast episode featuring Pieter Hintjens, a guest who shared his story of battling bile duct cancer |
• Pieter's account of contracting cancer from eating bad sushi and the parasitic infection that led to his disease |
• Reflections on the fragility of human life and the importance of prioritizing relationships and slowing down in high-pressure work environments |
• Pieter's pride in his C4 protocol for collective code construction and its focus on working with people, not just code |
• The impact of Pieter's episode on the hosts' approach to work and open-source development, including a more permissive and collaborative approach |
• Discussion of another podcast episode featuring Lara Hogan, author of Resilient Management, and her leadership style |
• Resilient Management and the importance of sponsorship in leadership |
• The difference between mentorship, coaching, and sponsorship |
• Lara Hogan's experience with sponsorship at Etsy and how it helped her growth |
• The need for compassion and empathy in leadership, especially in tech |
• Empathy as a skill that can be developed through practice and experience |
• The importance of meeting people where they are and understanding their challenges |
• Examples of how empathy and compassion can manifest in leadership, such as alleviating pain and resolving challenges |
• Maintainer Week and celebrating open source maintainers |
• Brett Cannon's blog post on viewing open source commits as gifts with no strings attached |
• Importance of boundaries and expectations between maintainers and users |
• The concept of open source software as a gift, with the maintainer as a giver and the user as a recipient |
• The role of commercial open source projects and their responsibilities, including managing community expectations and social contracts |
• The maturity of open source over the years, including the differences between volunteer and commercial maintainers |
• The impact of licenses on commercial use of open source software |
• The importance of setting clear expectations for open-source projects |
• The "gift" concept in open-source, where code is donated to the community |
• The need for projects to communicate their own standards and limitations |
• The freedom to fork and start new projects in open-source |
• The comparison between open-source and proprietary projects |
• The importance of clear communication in open-source projects |
**Ben Halpern:** Welcome to DevDiscuss, the show where we cover the burning topics that impact all of our lives as developers. I'm Ben Halpern, the co-founder of Forem... |
**Christina Gorton:** ...and I'm Christina Gorton, developer advocate at Forem. Today we're talking about deeply human stories in software, with the hosts of The Changelog Podcast, Adam Stacoviak and Jerod Santo. Thank you so much for being here. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Great to be here. Thanks for having us. |
**Jerod Santo:** Thanks for having us. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Big fans. |
**Ben Halpern:** Alright, so The Changelog has been around for a while... You're on episode 463, as my notes say, and we're very excited to have both of you on. I've been on The Changelog, and someone can look up that episode if they want... |
**Jerod Santo:** Episode \#310, "Open sourcing the dev community." |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Mm-hm. |
**Ben Halpern:** So before we get into it, can we get a little bit of background from you two? Adam, why don't we start with you - how did you get to do what you're doing today as a software developer, and then as an entrepreneur, podcast host, and that sort of thing? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** The way I got here really was -- we've shared it several times over many shows and whatnot, so I'll try and give you a more recent version of a straight line; we did this with Adam Jacobs recently, talking about the business model of open source... |
For me, things began really with Geocities, and wanting to put something on the internet, and then WordPress and the open source nature of it, being able to see the source code, and putting something on the web... And a personal blog that turned into something that was meaningful for me to learn, but then meaningful fo... |
Timeframe-wise, I would say this was like 2004-2005... So I hadn't really considered at the time -- the web wasn't as mature as it is now, to say "Okay, there's a real future here." Because I think now it's more mature, to the point where it's pretty clear there's a future here... Whereas then it was sort of like "What... |
\[04:06\] But it was so far back, I was like "I should try this, I guess. I should dig a little further in." So like with any good advice -- I took my mom's advice. My mom said "Adam, you're really good at this. You should really do something with it." And that's when I took it more seriously. I didn't go to school for... |
I sort of just played, and tinkered, and there you go. I got into more design stuff, I eventually got into Sass, I had a blog called The Sass Wave for a while there... The repo is still there, but the domain actually expired accidentally... And so the domain isn't there anymore, unfortunately, but the Twitter handle is... |
I think I pushed a little bit further there, got into open source, and it was around 2009 a buddy of mine and I was sitting there, and I was like, "You know, we should really do a podcast around this idea of open source." Because GitHub had just made itself exist basically the year beforehand, and it was like "Well, op... |
**Ben Halpern:** I'm imagining a Sean Parker moment when you got the change from TheChangelog to Changelog... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** We moved from TheChangelog.com to Changelog.com. That did make it to the blog post, announcing the announcement... |
**Jerod Santo:** It had to. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** But it was kind of like that... But we didn't really officially drop the The. The reason why is because there are many changelogs out there. There's a lot of changelogs that exist, for good reason. So we don't wanna own necessarily the brand of what changelogs are, but we definitely own the brand of... |
**Christina Gorton:** And Jerod, can you tell us a little bit about your background? |
**Jerod Santo:** Absolutely. So we did do a deep dive with Quincy Larson... And if anybody wants a three-hour version on this, you can go listen to FreeCodeCamp... I think it's on our feed as well, so it's out there... But the brief version is I very much got into computers because of Napster and Winamp back in the '90... |
I've always been a cautiously opportunistic person... And one of my friends in high school said "Hey, Jerod, you should go into computers, because there's a scholarship that you can get at the university here if you're into computers." So I thought "Oh, okay, I can be into computers." Like most people do, just kind of ... |
I went through college doing scripting stuff... It was kind of like an InfoSec specialization, so I wasn't really a programmer, but a scripter. And then I got into programming for the web very much similar to Adam. Mine was really like Pimp My WordPress Blog... So I had a WordPress blog and I wanted it to be rad; I wan... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Flicker, and whatnot... |
**Jerod Santo:** Liquor? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Flicker. Flicker. |
**Jerod Santo:** Flicker, yes. I thought you were like, "Yeah, just throw some liquor in the sidebar." |
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