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**Pieter Hintjens:** Well, it must’ve been about seven, eight years ago, I ate some bad sushi. That’s what I think happened. And there’s this little parasite that lives in fresh farmed fish in South-East Asia. And if you don’t cook the fish or really freeze it very solidly, then this parasite gets into your duodenum, a... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** And it was just like so bizarre how fragile, I suppose, human life is... Like, I can go eat the wrong thing... Or there’s some sort of debate whether that was even the cause of it, or whatever... And life can unfold. |
So I just think, for me, it was just reinforcing that, you know, hold dear the people near you. We show up every single day -- and sure, tech moves fast, and it’s like, “Well, you've got to raise a venture, and you've got to do this, and you've got to push that, and you've got to show up every single day...", and you a... |
Pieter and his story just helped for me reinforce the reasons why we choose slow and steady. The reasons why when we’re moving too fast, we say, “Slow down and check yourself.” Because we can move fast and we can accomplish some sort of goal that might be financially-driven, or whatever driven. But if we don’t show up ... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, so I touched on the campfire stories near the end, and that was definitely the most enjoyable part... Because when you just say like "Hey, tell us some stories..." and then he just started telling us stories. I don't remember the stories. I just remember he was so open, and so like "Yeah, let's d... |
\[27:59\] One thing that I noticed is that he was really proud of his C4, which -- I always butcher the acronyms, so I looked i up. That's the Collective Code Construction Contract. This was his favorite protocol. So we asked him -- you know, he's written over 30 protocols, his blog post was "A protocol for dying", he'... |
**Pieter Hintjens:** I really like that protocol, because it works really well. I mean, we’ve tried it now for years and it works almost magically well. And it’s written kind of from an artistic viewpoint, where you don’t really care what people feel as such, but you do care that they do feel. And so there’s this kind ... |
So I love working with people and I think I’m hyper-social. I’ve made hundreds or thousands of friends in the last years as I’ve gone around the world with conferences and so on, and that’s one of my great pleasures and happiness in life is people, other people. |
**Jerod Santo:** He was more proud of that, than any other -- and it's not very popular. They use it at ZeroMQ. It's very permissive. It's radical in very many ways, and I think that's why it's not widely used... Because most people can't be that open with their open source project. But I think he might accept all comm... |
**Ben Halpern:** Yeah, I do remember this episode as being really impactful for how I thought about how open source software can or should be maintained, in a lot of ways. I didn't go around adopting any of this literally - it's pretty radical - but it was a big influence for me. |
Also, Pieter passed away, he hasn't been around to see the evolution of things as they've happened in the past half decade... But I think pretty much everything he has written about, if you take it from its principles perspective, is pretty timeless. Not stuff everyone will agree with, but I think timeless in the natur... |
His blogs are still around to be read... He's written a lot of personal stuff. You're not gonna go there and find a million things that personally you agree with or worked for you, but I think your episode really distilled a lot of the most impactful stuff he'd written... And I think he was thinking about it very lucid... |
**Break:** \[31:43\] |
**Christina Gorton:** You all had another really powerful episode with Lara Hogan, author of Resilient Management, titled "Leading leaders who lead engineers", which obviously hits on some of the most human aspects of software, which is managing people. Can you give us a little description of that episode, and about La... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Lara, man... She's awesome. I've been paying attention to her for a bit, in terms of her leadership style; I pay attention to her newsletter, and... Jerod and I were just talking about this the other day, because I was a little nervous having her on, because I had been just such a fan of her for yea... |
And I guess finally I was like, "You know what - let's just do it." So I emailed her and we got her on the show... And we talked through pretty much this excerpt that she had on A List Apart, which was Resilient Management, an excerpt. It was from her book. And we really broke down kind of this core construct of a ment... |
**Jerod Santo:** She really opened my eyes to really just thinking about sponsorship more, and the aspects of ways you can invest in somebody else and help somebody else. One of her emphases -- is it an emphaze, and when it’s plural emphasizes...? I don't know. One of the things she talks about a lot is how we focus on... |
And so it’s a little bit about a mentor. I’m not saying there aren’t good reasons to be a mentor, but often it’s like, “Hey, I’m smart. Here’s how I can help you. Because you’re not as smart or experienced, so here’s some advice”, which is often needed, but it’s not the only thing people need. |
She really emphasizes people’s need for sponsorship; just really going out and giving them opportunities. Going out of your way to voucher somebody, or to offer their name for that role, or whatever happens to be. Get them in the door in a place. Those things are incredibly powerful and incredibly helpful for people th... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** She shared a story too about that process, like -- it wasn't just, by any means... Not that she would, but it wasn't pontificating. It wasn't like, "Here's how you do sponsorship." It was like, "Here's an example of sponsorship in my life." And she was saying about a time when she was at Etsy, becau... |
**Lara Hogan:** \[38:08\] He was a VP, I was not. And I was not prepared for what that was like. He didn't ask me first... It was sponsorship. As you said, Adam, by force. Sponsorship by force. But again, it connected to so many different people within the business. I didn't know what CapEx or OpEx was, I didn't unders... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** She gave good, concrete examples of how to sponsor in ways that showed up in her life, to help her be where she was at today. |
**Lara Hogan:** I was leading a web performance team, I was leading like a product infrastructure group, and my director was in the meeting, vouching for me, and all the other directors in the meeting were saying “Yeah, but maybe she’s not technical enough. Like, frontend… I don’t know. She doesn’t have the background,... |
**Christina Gorton:** You all were all just talking about a lot of the takeaways there... In this episode you talk about needing compassion and empathy in order to lead... Can you talk about these traits and how they are a necessary component for leadership, even in tech? Especially in tech. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I think Lara could do it better than I could. I think we were asking her the questions on that front. But to that note, we have a show called Brain Science, and it's because I'm super-curious about, I guess, just humanity... And I happen to have a friend who is a doctor in clinical psychology. Her n... |
But I think empathy is sort of meeting somebody where they're at... And I'm by no means giving a clinical terminology of empathy... But if you can meet somebody where they're at and you can understand where they're at, and still accept them and love on them, I think that's a high quality of a leader. You have to care a... |
**Christina Gorton:** Yeah, anyone with kids knows that it's a skill that they learn over time... \[laughs\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Precisely. And we did 32 episodes on that show, and I think there's people who still tweet about it... It's been out of production for about a year, and it bums me out, because I loved that show so much. We just don't have the time for it right at this very moment. But I'm hoping someday we might be... |
And I think about things like mindset; a lot of the mindset I have, with empathy and with different things, I've gotten from exercising that part of my brain by producing that show... So if you're listening to this, check it out. Not to grill this show, just grill yourself. It's an awesome show. I love it. |
**Ben Halpern:** \[42:05\] The next episode I'd like to talk about is entitled "Every commit is a gift." Can we hear about what that show was all about? |
**Jerod Santo:** So "Every commit is a gift" is an episode we did just recently... I think it was either this calendar year, or last calendar year... I think it was just this spring. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It was June, Jerod. It was June. |
**Jerod Santo:** That's right. Celebrating Maintainer Week with Brett Cannon. We're in a bit of a time vortex at the moment... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** We are. I forgive you. I forgive you. |
**Jerod Santo:** This was for Maintainer Week... So we were involved in Maintainer Week, which was put on in collaboration with GitHub and Tidelift, and trying to get maintainer events happening, celebrating maintainers, talking to maintainers, helping maintainers, getting them together... And of course, as we’ve been ... |
And so this episode with Brett Cannon, who is one of Python’s steering committee core members, so he’s been very involved in open source by way of the Python project for a very long time, is really a conversation around a blog post he wrote, which is about how every single commit that an open source maintainer puts out... |
So as part of Maintainer Week, we spoke with Brett, who’s been on the show a few times, about how he views open source as this metaphor of him putting a present on his lawn. It’s like free USB sticks, and you walk up and you take it and now it’s yours. |
**Brett Cannon:** It’s the Git repo, right? You can just come by and grab it and do whatever you want with it, and as long as I’m enjoying myself, I’ll keep refreshing that pile of flash drives. But does that give you the right to come to my front door and leave a flaming bag of something, because you’re upset of how I... |
Now, that isn’t to say that people could end up with certain expectations, right? Like Tidelift’s model of paying the maintainers, so that they actually do have a financial not only incentive, but almost expectation to do certain things. That makes sense. And I do understand that, and I think that’s great. But for a lo... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You know, we did this with Kara Sowles and Josh Simmons of Tidelift, and GitHub, and whatnot, and we did this as part of Maintainer Week, because we just absolutely love software maintainers; I'm sure you all do, as well. Every chance we get, we wanna find ways we can show up for them. And because B... |
So doing that show as part of Maintainer Week was just perfect, honestly. It's exactly the kind of show we wanted to deliver for that kind of event, which - Maintainer Week was just about celebrating open source software maintainers, so we did that with Brett. |
**Christina Gorton:** \[46:14\] As someone who's not a maintainer necessarily - because our whole team maintains our open source project - but manages our repo (I manage our repo), when there's a project where a maintainer is... Especially when there's a project where it's a single maintainer, or maybe they don't have ... |
Also, I see -- because we've had people before in our repo who are passionate (and I say passionate) about different things on our project, I also see that as a gift sometimes... Because if someone really deeply cares, and they want to comment on it, or even add to it - especially add to it, which is helpful... But eve... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Totally. Well, I would call you a maintainer... Because we had a podcast yesterday, that one with Robby Russell. And the reason why I say that is because he expressed some challenges with finding help, co-maintainers of Oh My Zsh. And I think it’s because we -- in the Brain Science show we say we ha... |
But I think we can massage the idea of what a maintainer is to not just be like, “Well, I ship code to this repository.” I think you’re very much a maintainer. If it’s open source and it’s open source-related, you’re a maintainer for sure. And to not make people feel like they’re imposters by showing up and thinking, “... |
**Christina Gorton:** Thank you. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You're welcome. |
**Ben Halpern:** In terms of our situation with regards to this topic, there’s certainly some additional social contracts that need to exist, because we are a commercial open source project, and our responsibilities I think probably go a lot further than that pure unilateral volunteerism kind of component. |
When we work with our community, ask for help in certain projects, from our perspective, we have to be really careful about doing so in a way where everything is mutually beneficial. And we really certainly try to maintain our open source projects such that, “Hey, if anybody wants to use this and download this, this is... |
But yeah, I just wanted to say that our responsibility as a commercial open source project - like people should scrutinize us I think in a different way they might your average volunteer maintainer. And from my perspective, I would want that, and I would also ask that of like GitLab, to be held to a certain type of sta... |
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