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**Adam Stacoviak:** Nah. That would be fun. |
**Jerod Santo:** Flicker, for sure. Yeah. Right at the advent of Web2, right? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[07:50\] So I learned really how to program for the web through that, and then I saw DHH's Ruby on Rails, and his "Build a blog post in 15 minutes", and I was like "Hello!" I found my way in, and so I really started doing that. I did contract software for many years. |
So that brings us to the Changelog... I was not there in 2009, when Adam and Wynn Netherland began. I was just a listener. And I listened to the Changelog because I was doing contract dev out here in the outskirts of Omaha, Nebraska... A little bit in the middle of nowhere. I very much felt like I was on an island, and... |
I saw the Changelog started to fade out, and I ran an independent consultancy, so I had some free time, I guess disposable time that was up to my own discretion, and so I just offered to help out. This was around the end of 2012, beginning of 2013... And I started blogging on Changelog.com... Actually, it was TheChange... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It was, yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** Blogging interesting things, and eventually started co-hosting the show... And our relationship grew, and the podcasts grew... And here we are. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** A lot of details in there that are missed. And it's fun to hear even Jerod share some of the history, because this has definitely been a journey. We heard a tweet recently that said -- and I don't like to say this to be boastful, but it's really interesting when you're putting a lot of hard work out... |
**Ben Halpern:** Yeah, absolutely. And I'm glad there are some three-hour interviews with each of you, or both of you, and there's plenty of backlog on the Changelog... |
**Jerod Santo:** Totally. |
**Ben Halpern:** So our episode isn't gonna be too meta or centric on what you two do, and we're gonna get into some of these episodes... But I wanna ask you about how Changelog has grown up alongside open source... Because I think 12 years ago a lot of what happens in open source was way less mainstream, way less unde... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I would just say obviously it's matured; I think a lot of things have changed... I think the way we form around it, the way that community happens around it, even projects maturing, the way we think about open source has matured... There's a lot of things you think that are the right way now, but it... |
I think about even things with Nadia, and funding, the funding of open source and sustainability, this idea around that... Even how we think about "Okay, the only problem in open source is money." Well, that's not true. Because even when projects have money, they have other problems than just simply money. Some project... |
I think there's different styles of open source, that's what's matured; there's obviously the idea of commercial open source now, there's this idea that you could become open source and then re-license and no longer be open source, because you choose SSPL or what the OSI deems is or is not "open source licenses." Which... |
\[12:08\] In terms of being important, I think it's the most important thing we have going on in the world today. Everything is run by open source software. Linux is a phenomenally, insanely used piece of software; it is everywhere. Everywhere. Sure, Windows is out there, and so is macOS and whatnot, and different comm... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. I would definitely say that it has engulfed the world of software... You know that Marc Andreessen quote about software eating the world, and open source has kind of eaten the world of software. We used to say that Changelog was about open source software and people, but we actually even took tha... |
And for me, I would say it's not just matured, but it's gotten more corporate, and somehow, because of that, mainstream, and often kind of shilly, and boring, in some regards. So I try to uncover the obscure, and talk to the people doing the weird and whacky. |
For a long time, it was very much hobbyists, passionate people giving a gift to the world... And those people are still out there. So the motivations - not that they've changed, but there's so many more people doing it that there's more motivations now. And a lot of those motivations are just mainstream, capitalist-dri... |
But for the things that I like to uncover and talk about and discuss, we have to work a little harder to find what's interesting now, because there's so much noise and so much things that aren't -- they're just not all that different, or weird, or worth talking about. |
**Christina Gorton:** If you can look back and think of the time over, what's been the most challenging aspect? I know you just mentioned the noise, and things like that... Can you kind of summarize, what's been the most challenging thing for you as you continue on, or even in the past, with podcasting? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Everything. \[laughter\] |
**Jerod Santo:** I mean, that's a cop-out... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I would summarize -- yeah, it's challenging to summarize, because there's the business behind the thing itself... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So I think being able to produce a high-quality show that has those characteristics has -- you know, when Jerod mentioned his history, he came in at the time whenever we were gonna legitimize in terms of our business, how we can actually turn it into a business. Because prior to that, it had really ... |
And Jerod came around at a time when we were gonna change this into a business. So I would say the challenges aren't just simply creating a podcast. It's 1) being in the trenches enough and caring enough to show up for the people that matter, to have them on the show, to shine our spotlight in areas where it's not bein... |
**Jerod Santo:** So one thing that we've focused on is -- three things, actually... We call them the three Cs. And we didn't invent this, Adam... You handed this to me. You didn't invent this idea, with the three Cs... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I invented this. |
**Jerod Santo:** You invented this? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[16:07\] This is my invention. |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay. So the first one starts with a Q, which is hilarious, but the three Cs are Quality, Content... So there’s your C, is the content, and Consistency and Community. Those are kind of the three pillars that we focus on. And I think of those three things, I spoke a little bit to the content, concerns a... |
I don’t think the content is the hardest part, because there’s so many interesting discussions, so many people doing cool things, overcoming challenges. There’s always somebody worth talking to. For us, it has been the consistency, which we continue to struggle with, to this day. I think most podcasters do, because as ... |
**Break:** \[17:42\] |
**Ben Halpern:** Alright, let's get into the meat of this episode. This episode came to be because we were talking about some news stories, about some folks who were creating AI chatbots to replicate the dialogue they’d had with deceased relatives, and things like that... And talking about not just the fact that this i... |
Pieter Hintjens, a very notable open source software developer, who at the time had terminal cancer and was thinking deeply about death, and how it related to everything else, thinking of it in their own terms... And Pieter has since passed away, but I thought it was a very good episode. I learned a lot. If one of you ... |
**Jerod Santo:** \[20:12\] Sure. I’ll start on this one. I’ll say this was Adam’s idea. And I didn’t know Pieter Hintjens prior to Adam telling me about him... So he had already written that post, but Pieter was a prolific open source person. The creator and lead maintainer of ZeroMQ. He has the C4, his licensing agree... |
And when Adam brought that show idea to me, he had already written A Protocol for Dying. So this was something that we were well aware of. And I will say that going into that episode -- I mean, Pieter was basically living out the end of his days. He knew he was going to die, and it was going to happen somewhat slowly, ... |
Secondly, I’ll say that that episode absolutely terrified us in terms of like, “Is this a really bad idea?” Because things could go very south on a show like that. And I would just say that anytime that we felt that trepidation, then usually the answer is, "Yeah, you've got to do that show." If a show makes you nervous... |
And from my perspective, I was just honored to talk to the guy and learn about some of his precepts and the way he saw things. At the tail end of the show, at one point, I remember, I just said, “Hey, why don’t you just tell us some more stories?” It was almost like we were around the campfire, and just letting him tel... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I totally agree with everything you've just said. It was a challenge even been pitching this idea for this show, because I had paid attention to Pieter on Twitter, had been paying attention to what he had shared, his blog posts and whatnot... And terrible news, obviously. He had obviously family, I ... |
So I had this thought internally, like "I want to get this kind of a show. I would love to do this show." I had no idea what it might be. I'm like, “There’s no way I’m going to reach out to them. There’s just no way.” And then I saw him tweet, like “Hey, if you want to reach out to me and talk to me...” Like, he invite... |
So if he hadn’t had that invitation, I probably wouldn’t have emailed him or got in touch. I would have just wanted to do the show and we just didn’t do it. But he put the invitation out, I reached out and he’s like, “Sure, let’s do it.” And then we talked basically, like, as soon as possible, because of his situation.... |
So when we were saying goodbye on the show, it was challenging. Like, even almost now I’m a little crackly, because we were really saying goodbye to Pieter... Because one, I'd just met him, never met him before, had a deep conversation about his life and his legacy, what mattered to him most, and his daughter and his f... |
**Jerod Santo:** \[24:20\] Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Because we were on video at the time, and this even a day -- I don't know how often we did video, but we did for this one... And I was just like "Wow, this is probably the most profound show we have done", because -- just the weight of it. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. I don't think I've ever gone from not knowing somebody, to genuinely appreciating and borderline loving the guy in the course of two hours. It was just like that. He was that kind of person. You just loved to listen to the guy... But to this day, it's definitely in my pantheon of our greatest hit... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Christina Gorton:** If either of you want to, could you talk about some of the moments of that podcast that struck you the most? I know you've kind of talked about it in general, on some of the things... But was there anything specific that you all talked about, or said, or even just felt at that time, that you would... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I remember even him sharing how he had gotten this -- he had a metastasis of bile duct cancer in both lungs... And I think he said the way he got it was some sort of thing where it may have been from something he'd eaten. |
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