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[1601.70 --> 1601.86] containers. |
[1602.40 --> 1605.10] And I remember FreeBSDJLs as well. |
[1605.22 --> 1608.18] I'm yet to start a FreeBSDJL successfully. |
[1608.54 --> 1613.46] I've started that project when, like, 10 years ago when I got, like, my first FreeBSD |
[1613.46 --> 1613.80] server. |
[1614.24 --> 1618.62] And I never got to this day to get the jail up and running because how complicated it |
[1618.62 --> 1618.88] was. |
[1618.98 --> 1619.24] Yes. |
[1619.34 --> 1621.68] And I started, like, ah, there's, like, so many configuration options. |
[1621.68 --> 1624.50] And Docker made it run a command and you have it. |
[1624.80 --> 1625.52] That was brilliant. |
[1626.16 --> 1628.68] So as an idea, as a concept was really, really good. |
[1628.68 --> 1633.02] And things then, they got complicated and, you know, it happened what happened. |
[1633.20 --> 1634.20] But you're right. |
[1634.26 --> 1637.96] We are here today where Docker is no longer part of Kubernetes. |
[1638.34 --> 1638.90] It used to be. |
[1639.00 --> 1640.94] And that created quite the confusion. |
[1641.44 --> 1644.78] People say that, that, like, oh, Kubernetes dropped Docker and it's no longer. |
[1644.92 --> 1648.16] But that's my point, is that we shouldn't be thinking about the word Docker. |
[1648.26 --> 1650.56] We should be thinking about the standard that Docker created. |
[1650.56 --> 1656.16] So Kubernetes is still using Docker as a standard just as much as it did before, right? |
[1656.42 --> 1656.64] Yeah. |
[1656.68 --> 1658.98] It's still an integral part of what it means to be Kubernetes. |
[1659.26 --> 1660.62] I think it's the container runtime. |
[1661.10 --> 1663.38] That's, you know, that clarification came afterwards. |
[1663.38 --> 1667.00] Like, no, we're not dropping Docker support because Docker means so many things. |
[1667.04 --> 1667.94] It became an ecosystem. |
[1668.28 --> 1672.80] And even now, the default container registry is the Docker hub, right? |
[1672.80 --> 1674.94] So if you don't specify, and that's also Docker. |
[1674.94 --> 1680.74] It's part of Docker, but also the container runtime, the container D, run C, and a couple |
[1680.74 --> 1681.18] of others. |
[1681.36 --> 1682.74] But I think these are the two popular ones. |
[1683.18 --> 1687.32] So that's what they meant by removing Docker as a dependency of Kubernetes. |
[1687.90 --> 1691.62] And I'm wondering if you have to be good at Docker to do Kubernetes. |
[1691.86 --> 1693.96] Like, do you need any experience with Docker? |
[1694.16 --> 1696.40] Do you need to run Docker locally to get Kubernetes? |
[1696.92 --> 1700.70] I know that you can get Kubernetes in Docker, which confuses a lot of people. |
[1700.70 --> 1704.96] But I'd never recommend it, but, you know. |
[1705.22 --> 1707.52] Turtles all the way down and turtles in a circle even. |
[1707.68 --> 1707.78] Yeah. |
[1707.98 --> 1712.14] We actually get that question a lot, especially when we're talking to people about our workshops, |
[1712.34 --> 1714.32] because I guess the answer is sort of. |
[1714.44 --> 1718.82] You sort of need to be good with Docker in order to be good with Kubernetes. |
[1719.10 --> 1724.40] And what I mean by that is our core Kubernetes workshop actually doesn't use Docker at all. |
[1724.50 --> 1727.08] You never run a Docker command throughout that entire workshop. |
[1727.08 --> 1731.66] And even when we go under the hood, as you said, nowadays, you don't even see Docker on |
[1731.66 --> 1733.92] the nodes because it's all container-ty, right? |
[1734.16 --> 1734.28] Yep. |
[1734.44 --> 1741.26] You need to understand the concept of what containers are, as in sort of tiny VMs that |
[1741.26 --> 1742.36] can share some stuff. |
[1742.48 --> 1746.90] Like, we talk about the Linux namespaces that are being used in Kubernetes, right? |
[1746.92 --> 1749.28] When we talk about the different things you can share amongst containers. |
[1749.58 --> 1753.16] But you don't have to be great at crafting a Dockerfile, for example. |
[1753.22 --> 1754.92] And crafting a Dockerfile is an art. |
[1754.92 --> 1760.20] It is hard to create an efficient, really good Dockerfile and to understand all the security |
[1760.20 --> 1761.16] implications and everything. |
[1761.76 --> 1766.66] And to some degree, I think that shows how Docker did the tech community a service by |
[1766.66 --> 1770.90] giving us the standard, but did us a disservice by making that standard so low level. |
[1771.04 --> 1775.72] I mean, as an application developer, you need to understand not only apt-get install, but |
[1775.72 --> 1779.78] also the apt-cache and the difference between Alpine Linux and Ubuntu. |
[1780.24 --> 1781.42] All this stuff is kind of crazy. |
[1781.42 --> 1788.84] So most successful teams that I've seen instead centralize at least the skill of crafting Dockerfiles, |
[1788.94 --> 1794.38] if not just using a single centralized Dockerfile across all of your applications. |
[1794.38 --> 1796.24] That's like a thing you can do, right? |
[1796.46 --> 1803.44] So most teams I've seen have centralized that knowledge of how you create efficient Dockerfiles |
[1803.44 --> 1803.94] and all that. |
[1803.94 --> 1808.52] And then application developers just need to understand, maybe locally, they need to understand, |
[1808.62 --> 1813.84] you know, Docker Compose up and maybe a few Docker command line things. |
[1813.88 --> 1817.14] And they need to understand maybe how to push Docker images. |
[1817.14 --> 1820.34] But frankly, often that's just taken care of by the CICD system too. |
[1820.76 --> 1826.06] So no, I think you can make a lot of use of Kubernetes without having a deep understanding |
[1826.06 --> 1826.42] of Docker. |
[1826.42 --> 1831.56] For me, Kubernetes makes a lot more sense having started with Docker and having spent a couple |
[1831.56 --> 1834.46] of years in that ecosystem before Kubernetes was a thing. |
[1835.14 --> 1839.66] So, and that's very easy to ignore and forget because my beginning was not Kubernetes. |
[1840.08 --> 1843.36] But many people, this is where they start and they missed the whole Docker thing. |
[1843.44 --> 1847.10] I mean, they may have been running it locally, but not to the point that they understand it, |
[1847.18 --> 1850.52] not to the point that they've been using it for a couple of years and really understand |
[1850.52 --> 1851.56] what's happening under the hood. |
[1851.56 --> 1856.62] So I think some Docker concepts, and as I mentioned, and as you've mentioned, it's not |
[1856.62 --> 1857.18] just the runtime. |
[1857.48 --> 1861.70] There's so many other aspects of Docker are really helpful to get started with Kubernetes. |
[1862.34 --> 1866.02] What other things do you think are helpful when you get started with Kubernetes? |
[1866.62 --> 1872.04] In terms of knowledge, I think it's almost more important to have a deeper understanding |
[1872.04 --> 1875.24] of Linux networking and just networking in general. |
[1875.40 --> 1881.12] From our experience, understanding how a cluster IP service works, for example, and all the IP |
[1881.12 --> 1886.04] tables stuff that happens there, understanding how load balancers work, understanding why |
[1886.04 --> 1890.76] node ports are a terrible idea, or understanding how ingresses work at layer seven, right? |
[1891.32 --> 1897.50] All of that is conceptually harder for our students from what we've seen and conceptually harder |
[1897.50 --> 1902.32] for people who are new to Kubernetes because they just never had to deal with that kind |
[1902.32 --> 1903.44] of networking knowledge. |
[1903.76 --> 1908.58] I think another thing that's important for a team who's getting started with, well, first |
[1908.58 --> 1910.26] of all, let's talk about how you should adopt Kubernetes. |
[1910.26 --> 1915.92] First of all, even though I kind of pooh-poohed the value of the Kubernetes managed services |
[1915.92 --> 1920.56] like EKS, AKS, and GKE, you absolutely should use them. |
[1920.68 --> 1923.20] I mean, yes, you can deploy your own cluster, but why? |
[1923.56 --> 1925.88] Like, just go with one of the managed solutions. |
[1926.10 --> 1928.44] Frankly, they're cheaper, especially GKE, right? |
[1928.54 --> 1933.50] And if you have a choice just to, you know, if you have your druthers about which cloud to |
[1933.50 --> 1940.64] be on, GKE is by far the best experience, and Azure is by far the worst experience, not |
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