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**Oleg Nenashev:** I'm probably a bit lazy, because I just place a shell on my agents. So I modify shell under Docker Images and, and Otel CLI is enabled by default to their full screens. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Okay, interesting. |
**Oleg Nenashev:** Hackish, but it works. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Do you have an example of how to do that? That's very interesting. I would like to check it out, the code. |
**Oleg Nenashev:** \[32:10\] I don't have the code with me, but basically, you can just take OpenTelemetry, you create a shell wrapper, which just sends all the command wrote in this shell to OpenTelemetry... And that's it. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Okay. |
**Oleg Nenashev:** It's a wrapper with everything so the envrionment which is pretty transparent to your system as long as you use shell scripts. Obviously, if you use a mix of Bash, Python etc. then you will have to instrument all of these tools, which becomes a bit tricky, but still possible. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** You say, Cyrille, in one of your talks, that Jenkins in production is hard... And I know a thing or two about that, because many years ago we used to pair \[unintelligible 00:32:44.02\] cloudbees Jenkins in Pivotal Cloud Foundry, in the platform... That was many, many years ago. |
**Cyrille Le Clerc:** Yeah, indeed. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** And I'm wondering - today, how would you run Jenkins in production? What would you choose? |
**Cyrille Le Clerc:** We use massively Jenkins at Elastic. We use it in conjunction with Kubernetes for all modern Jenkins platforms. I'm a bit further away from this, but I think it is very important to leverage the flexibility of Docker containers to let development teams customize their build environment the way the... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Would you agree, Oleg? |
**Oleg Nenashev:** Yes, and no, because you better deploy your CI system it should be similar to your target environment, especially if you want to do integration tests, and based on that, a lot of "depends". So if you deploy cloud-native applications, then yeah, most likely you will have to run Jenkins and Kubernetes.... |
What I would like to say, if you talk about modern Jenkins management - everyone heard about Jenkins plugin hell, and other things... And it's totally a case. But these days you can fully manage Jenkins using configurations code, and you create basically a CI/CD pipeline for your automation system configuration as well... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Okay. |
**Cyrille Le Clerc:** Here's something else on the way to build your continuous delivery pipelines, and related to Jenkins a bit broader... A topic you discussed last time when you met with the Dagger people is it's important to be able to run your CI pipeline, to test it, to develop it on your local computer. There ar... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Okay. Oleg? |
**Oleg Nenashev:** Firstly, I agree that you should be able to test locally, but that doesn't mean that you cannot use pipeline definitions... Because many modern systems actually allow running pipelines locally. It's not just Jenkins... So for Jenkins we had Jenkinsfile Runner, for TeamCity you can run kotlin DSL and ... |
**Cyrille Le Clerc:** \[36:06\] That's a good solution. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** We will talk about pipeline development, what that looks like... But I would like to go back to the production question. How do you deploy Jenkins in production? I think Cyrille was mentioning Kubernetes... You would deploy Jenkins, a production deployment, and you would manage Jenkins via Kubernetes.... |
**Cyrille Le Clerc:** I am not knowledgeable enough. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Okay. What about you, Oleg? |
**Oleg Nenashev:** I would go with Helm chart, to be honest, because Helm chart allows to be more flexible in terms of defining the system. Operator has a lot of advantages if you want to build a reactive system, which is basically based on Kubernetes APIs, it adds to some events, it automatically scales etc. But for J... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Okay. |
**Oleg Nenashev:** Right now it's not quite possible with stock Jenkins, so I would rather go off the Helm chart. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** In that world, where you have a production deployment of Jenkins using Helm, how would you configure the pipelines? How would configure Jenkins, and then how would you configure, for example, the agents themselves? Where would that happen? How would that look like? |
**Oleg Nenashev:** Everything as code, because currently, if you talk about pipelines, if you use a Jenkins pipeline, Job DSL, all these technologies can be stored as code in your repository in parallel with your project, so that when you build your project, you have a pipeline and you can test them all together... And... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** From the perspective of code, config-as-code, do you mean just config, like Yaml, or some other format? What does that code look like? |
**Oleg Nenashev:** Yes. So if we talk specifically about a Jenkins pipeline, historically it uses Groovy DSL. So it's a Groovy-like language, with some security and context requirements for failover, but it looks like Groovy, and there are multiple ways to define it. Firstly, it can be a scripted pipeline, which is bas... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Okay. |
**Oleg Nenashev:** So it's your choice how you actually implement them, and Jenkins as a tool supports both modes. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** And would you configure Jenkins using the Kubernetes API, or would you target the Jenkins master node directly? How would that work? |
**Oleg Nenashev:** In my case, I would rather use Jenkins for agent management, because if you put it in Kubernetes, it will be still a question how do you actually retrieve these configurations into Jenkins... And ultimately, it doesn't matter, because it's still a system in the same repository. It doesn't matter how ... |
**Break:** \[39:41\] |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Oleg, I would like us to come back to the conversation that we started having and we've put a pin in it, around separating the CI from the CD concerns in your system, which gets code out into production. What do you think about that? Do you think you should separate them or you shouldn't? And why. |
**Oleg Nenashev:** I would say that generally, you should. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** You should. Okay. |
**Oleg Nenashev:** Yes. It might be still the same service per se in terms of deployment, but logically, CI and CD pipelines are significantly different. So there are different requirements, there are different implementation paradigms... So when you develop your delivery system, you would rather split that. For exampl... |
If you talk about CI/CD as systems, I would rather say it's an implementation detail, because what we want is that systems work for our use case. If they work, it's perfectly fine. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I know that in a previous episode we talk about using something like GitHub Actions for the CI part, which builds, gets the dependencies, runs the tests... And then something like Argo CD for the deployment part, where you have the artifacts, and then Argo CD just reconciles whatever runs in Kubernete... |
**Cyrille Le Clerc:** Something that comes to my mind here is that we are in a world where we want to automate more and more the deployment of what we produce. So even if we decide to use two tools, or maybe to put some boundaries for security constraints, security of the supply chain process, we still need a very auto... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Well, I can tell you, what we changed about the whole Changelog setup a couple of years back, where we decoupled -- we used Concourse, by the way, to run the builds, run the tests, and even deploy. That's what we used in the past. And we used Ansible and Concourse; that's what the setup was. And then ... |
So in that world, we can have multiple copies of production, whatever that means, and all we have to do is tell it "This is the artifact(s) that we want you to run. Whenever there's an update, run the latest." So we decouple the deployment concerns from the integration concerns, and we can change the CI, we can produce... |
**Oleg Nenashev:** Yeah, it's a good approach, because the CD system will be eventually more complex than CI, even in this case... Because it's nice to say that we just download the artifact, but when it comes, let's say, to failover - failover is a must for CD - then of course, various kinds of scalability concerns...... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** \[45:59\] This is a question for you, Oleg... What does your process of developing a CI/CD pipeline look like? |
**Oleg Nenashev:** So in my case, I develop pipelines locally. I mostly use Jenkins (surprise, surprise). I also use GitHub Actions quite a lot. In both cases, I run pipelines locally, I verify them... And in both cases, I try to minimize the amount of code and business logic that goes into my user definitions, whether... |
It happens usually that there is a pipeline library that implements these steps; well, these pipeline libraries, especially in Jenkins, you can create test frameworks, you can verify them. Finally, I end up with my pipeline itself just having several lines of code, which is basically configuration, not the pipeline def... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** And do you have an example that you can share with us, for us to see what that looks like, the end result of that process? |
**Oleg Nenashev:** One of the examples you can take a look at, the jenkins-infra/pipeline-library - this is the Jenkins pipeline library we use for building Jenkins components. You have something like 1,800 plugins available now at these centers, and basically we have two standard ways right now, Maven and Gradle. So f... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I will. Thank you for that. |
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