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The scientific method is really important. Everything that you think is an assumption. And by the way, it's most likely wrong. But that's okay, because the quicker you can iterate on that, the quicker you'll figure out what right looks like. And once you know one right, then you'll have two, three, and before you know ... |
**Romano Roth:** \[27:49\] Absolutely. One thing that I also find important - you said "Go quicker." Yes, this is right, but you also need to recognize when it is enough. And I think this is also quite an important thing. You don't need to chase a Google, Netflix, or so. It can be perfectly fine in your context to, for... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Yeah. In my mind, any code, any feature that is built and it's not out there, it's inventory. And we all know that zero inventory is the best type of inventory. So whatever you have, just make sure it's out there; make sure people can start using it. Even if it's not complete, it doesn't really matter... |
**Romano Roth:** Absolutely. And one of the things that I usually see - in many companies it is not allowed to make failures. And this is a huge pity, because when you always need to do things right, you cannot go that fast. That's a huge problem, and this is also a culture shift, and culture shifts take a lot of time. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Can you think of an example when making a mistake was a great thing? When making a mistake or a failure, people have learned from that failure? And if they weren't allowed to make it in the first place, they wouldn't have had those learnings. Can you think of such an example? |
**Romano Roth:** Yeah, of course. I have such an example. So in one of the projects we needed to move fast. And in order to move fast, we said, "Okay, we have already an application in place, which we're using server-side rendering." But that was an old technology. And we said, "Okay, we can use that, but the user expe... |
So we made an architectural decision together with the business and said "Okay, we will use this old technology, and move on, so that we can learn." And we were building up the user interface with that. But soon, the business said, "Yeah, it looks okay, but we want to have a better user experience." So a user experienc... |
\[32:14\] And we had a very good discussion about that, and we said we'd take the risk, we go to a new UI technology. Of course, we made some silly estimations, which were absolutely wrong; we completely underestimated it. But in the end, it was the right decision which we did... And the thing is the following - in the... |
Of course, now you can say "Yeah, you could see that already in the beginning, and you could change that already in the beginning", but in my opinion it was not feasible. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Yeah. That's a really interesting story. And I'm wondering what that story would have been had the developers maybe stumbled across something like LiveView, which is server-side rendering, but it's a modern server-side rendering which exists in the Elixir ecosystem; it's running on the Erlang VM. Very... |
**Romano Roth:** Yeah. And one of the important things is you should not be afraid of the sunk costs... Because that's always a bad thing. And you always hear that term quite a lot, "Yeah, but then we have sunk costs." Yeah, of course you have sunk costs, but throwing more money after a bad idea or a bad solution is al... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Yeah. It's not gonna make it better, right? The focus is on learning. The focus is not on the time spent to learn. What did you learn? Is this a good thing, and can you build on top of that? So if you switch your mindset and you think "Well, that's okay. We know not to do that again", and we know that... |
Okay... Now, talking about technology, I'm wondering what role does a specific technology play in these decisions. I know that many teams get excited about something like Kubernetes, or they get excited about (as you mentioned) Angular. I'm not sure who gets excited about Angular these days, but I'm sure there are peop... |
**Romano Roth:** I have been in these types of scenarios quite a lot. The thing is the following - what you need to do is you need to understand what the real need is, what you need to do. So getting excited about the technologies is a great thing; trying out this technology is also a great thing, but you should not do... |
\[36:11\] What I usually do is I really want to understand what exactly our need is, and what problem we are trying to solve, so what is the underlying problem we are trying to solve with this technology. And there is technology out there which perfectly fits the problem, but just looking at the technology and not know... |
What I then do is I do sort of an analysis of the different possibilities, where I say, "Okay, this is technology Y, and this has these advantages, it solves us these problems, but it also could potentially introduce these problems. And this is the other technology which we are having", and then you have something whic... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Who decides which technology should be used? Do you let the developers decide, the ones doing the work? Or do you let the architect decide? Or the management? How does that look like? |
**Romano Roth:** In my opinion, it should always be the decision of the team. The team which needs to work with this technology, they need to take the decision. Because if someone else takes the decision, the team does not stand behind this decision. So that's why I usually want that the team takes the decision, and al... |
**Break**: \[38:51\] |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I know, Romano, that you have a YouTube channel, which is growing in popularity. I've seen some really good videos. And I've checked today, and your most popular video to date is what are the DevOps trends that you have seen in 2021. I think "2021 DevOps Trends", something like that. I forget the exac... |
**Romano Roth:** Actually, I really don't know why it is so popular, but I made some analysis and it looks like people are googling this title, so they want to know what the trends are. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** So what are they? Can you tell us what they are? |
**Romano Roth:** Yeah, of course. So the trends which I brought up in 2021 was it's all about automation; so we need to automate more, so that's one of the trends that are pointed out. Security, so the whole dev sec ops - that was a huge one. And AIOps, that was also one of the trends that I pointed out. So we have a l... |
When I look back to the statements that I did, I think I was absolutely right with these trends. For example, when I look at AIOps, this is something that's coming, quite huge. I also started using AIOps in some areas, and the results are really amazing. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** First of all, what is AIOps, and second of all, how do you make use of that? What does that look like in practice for you? |
**Romano Roth:** So AIOps - as I said, usually you log out quite a lot of data. So you have a lot of log statements. And when you have a distributed system, you have distributed log files. So first of all, you need to put that all together into one logging system which you can have. But then you have a lot of logging s... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** What do you use? That's something-- |
**Romano Roth:** For example, I use quite a lot Dynatrace. And I'm a huge fan of Dynatrace, because we have some very difficult projects out there, and we were chasing some performance problems, and also some problems where suddenly something didn't work, and we weren't finding it. And also with log file analysis, we w... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** \[44:13\] Okay. Anything other than Dynatrace that you've used and you've liked? |
**Romano Roth:** I've also used Datadog, I like that also. Beside of that, no, I cannot -- |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Okay. So Datadog - were you using it in the same way, in that you were shipping logs to Datadog, and then Datadog figured out what was going on in the system based on the logs? |
**Romano Roth:** Exactly. Yeah. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Interesting. Okay. We talked about AIOps... Now, in automation, what tools do you find yourself reaching out for when you're automating things? What is in your toolbox, or what do you find maybe that your team likes to use? |
**Romano Roth:** What we quite often use when it comes to deployment automation, we use quite a lot Octopus Deploy, of course... And when it comes to CI/CD pipelines, then of course we use Jenkins, but also TeamCity, ASH Devops is also a huge thing, and of course, GitHub and GitLab. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Okay. And another category was dev sec ops; I think I would call it like supply chain security... What tools do you use for securing the supply chain? |
**Romano Roth:** We need to understand that there are different aspects of security when we talk about dev sec ops. One thing is the application security. So when we do continuous integration and our continuous integration server is compiling our source code, we do static code analysis. There, for example, we use of co... |
What you also need to do is you not only need to analyze your code, you also need to analyze the libraries, and the libraries of the libraries of the libraries... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Oh, yes... That's a big one. |
**Romano Roth:** Exactly, that's a big one. And you need to identify these vulnerabilities there. And there I use usually WhiteSource to do that, which is also quite good because you also get the information about the licensing, which is also a difficult thing. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Oh, yes. That's a big one. You're right - once you enter the enterprise world... You don't even think about these things as a startup, but when you go in the enterprise, this is a big-ticket item; really, very important. |
**Romano Roth:** Exactly, exactly. And the second thing you need to think of is of course when you are in production. First of all, what you need to do is monitor your system, and therefore you need to have these enterprise security monitoring systems. There is also a ton of products out there, but usually what you use... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** That's interesting. So we have heard about the DevOps trends for 2021, and you gave us some great examples, some tools that you use in various spaces. I'm wondering, first of all, will you create a video for 2022? |
**Romano Roth:** Sure, of course. I'm currently preparing it. I'm gathering all of the trends that I see at the moment, and at the end of the year I will create that video and publish it. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Okay. Can you give us a couple of hints as to what you're thinking about? Again, this is a draft, this is not the finished version, but a few things that you're thinking for this video. |
**Romano Roth:** \[47:59\] Yeah. So first of all, what I will do is I will look back to what I said in my '21 video... I will have a look at that and I will say what kind of trends I see in the future. One of the huge trends that I see is hyper-automation. So it's not only about automating stuff, it's about automating ... |
With the hyper-automation there is also another thing coming - you get a lot of data out of that, and you need to monitor that, and then you have again that big data problem, and again, AIOps comes into play, because with all of that automation you also need to maintain that, and you need to operate that. So your topic... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Interesting. So hyper-automation - that is a great title. I'm sure that we could do an episode just on that - what it is, why is it important, what elements do you see in that... Interesting; okay, that's a great idea, I think. Let's run it by the product team, I think...? Because you were talking abo... |
**Romano Roth:** What the next thing is, which we'll have - this is the whole cyber-resilience topic. Of course, on one side we have that dev sec ops thing, so we bring security into the whole DevOps cycle, but when you look at all of the attacks that are out there on companies, I think cyber-resilience will be one of ... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Interesting. I don't know enough about that topic, but it's something I would like to research, just to understand a bit better. I know all the ransomware attacks and all the cyber attacks - they're becoming more and more prevalent, and bigger, and they affect more and more users, but I don't know eno... |
Switching subjects... Because I know that one topic that was top of your mind recently was how to allocate budget. And I forget the exact phrase that you used... It was a really good one. Let me check that, actually... Or you can tell me what it is. |
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