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**David Flanagan:** Yeah, I do try and remain active. I'll go back to the schedule first, actually, just a little bit on that... So you're not the first person I've heard who has multiple talks running at the same time. There's that community member NoJarJ who does four or five talks at the same time as well, and Slack... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Oh, wow. I didn't know that... |
**David Flanagan:** Yeah, I don't think I've actually told anyone. I didn't really talk about it on Twitter either, but I did chair that... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** That's amazing. Wow... |
**David Flanagan:** I helped pick all the talks. If you don't like them, it's sadly my fault, and one other person... But it should be a pretty good KubeCon. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Right. Okay... Well, then that means that you know all the talks that are -- well, not all the talks... Like, you have a good idea of the talks that are coming, the themes, the speakers... That's amazing. Anything that you would recommend in particular? Something that resonated with you from that trac... |
**David Flanagan:** Yeah, I think my bias definitely helped work some of the selection. I've got an affinity for GitOps and infrastructure as code, so there's a lot of really good sessions that feature using Argo for deployment... You know, we've talked a bit about that last time; I think we're both fans of the project... |
A lot of sessions on infrastructure as code, with TerraForm and Crossplane really popular this year... We've seen a lot of submissions talking about Crossplane... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Interesting. |
**David Flanagan:** ...which is great to see. And of course, there's a few preliminary sessions on there from some of my new teammates from Pulumi as well. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I see, okay. So when it comes to GitOps, Flux or Argo? What do you think? |
**David Flanagan:** Oh, I'm so on the fence... I actually use both. I really love the simplicity of Flux; it just seems to work. But I love the Argo UI, and I wish I could merge them together sometimes. Previously I mentioned that Flux are working on the UI; it's still super-early. I don't recommend people use it yet. ... |
I think the challenge with Argo is the custom resources are slightly more complicated, especially when you have to adopt the App of Apps model, which is an app to deploy an app, which has sub-apps... And I haven't really got my head around that completely; I'm not as fluent with it as I am with Flux, but I definitely t... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Yeah. So it's a matter of trying them, I suppose, and seeing what works for you. That's one of my favorites. |
**David Flanagan:** Well, we got this announcement - was it two years ago? Maybe you'll remember... But the team -- was it Intuit who were the original creators of Argo, and Flux. They had this big joint announcement where they said "We're gonna consolidate both of the tools to get this one GitOps tool to rule them all... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** \[01:16:07.02\] Yeah, 2019... I was actually there, at that KubeCon, and I was so excited. That was also the North America one. And I would like to dig more into that to see why that happened. I didn't get a chance to speak to the Flux team. They're on my list, they really are... But it's like -- you ... |
**David Flanagan:** Maybe. I can't remember exactly. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Yeah, something like that. It's happening as well, and that will be an interesting one to watch. But I would really like to understand what happened there with Flux and Argo, and what are the strengths and the weaknesses of one versus the other. The UI - that's like a good one. |
I do have to say, even though I have tried Argo, I haven't tried Flux. So this GitOps summit which is coming, I'm hoping, I'll be able to try it out in that context. I'm looking forward to that. Okay... |
**David Flanagan:** I think the Flux chain is a bit better when it comes to being a bit more agnostic on the tools you wanna use to actually generate the Yaml. You know, not all of our GitOps repositories are straight Yaml manifests; we're using tools to customize are the carvel dev tools or we're using capitan. There'... |
Flux makes it a lot easier to say "I wanna use a tool to generate the manifest before we do the apply stage." With Argo I think it's a little bit more convoluted. There has to be a concept of a provider, if I remember correctly... And they're not all supported. But that could have changed since the last time-- |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Cool. I definitely have to follow up on it, so thank you for that. Thank you, I really appreciate it. In the context of KubeCon, coming back - so there's the operations track. Any other track that you're excited about? |
**David Flanagan:** All of them, I think. I'm in a really unfortunate position, which you probably are as well - we need to really stay on top of a lot of this, as well as our day jobs... And we have our extra-curricular activities where we need to be knowledgeable on a lot of these domains. So I really am watching all... |
One of the reasons I joined Pulumi is just because it directly is everything I love doing with platforms, which is taking the primitive tools that we have, like Flux, and Argo, and Kubernetes, and cloud providers, and being able to give developers a platform to deploy their application. My interest and Pulumi's interes... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I would like to dig into that a bit more, because that's like the other big thing that changed in the last month for you, the new job with Pulumi. I think Kat Cosgrove - is she there as well, at Pulumi, I believe? |
**David Flanagan:** Yes. Matt Stratton, Kat Cosgrove and Laura Santamaria - they are my teammates. They're the developer advocacy team at Pulumi, and I'm joining in with some great people there, definitely. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Yeah, a big shout-out to them. That was the first thing which I wanted to do. And the second thing is ask you, as I asked you before, "Why Pulumi specifically?" Why Pulumi? Could you see this one coming? Let's be honest, did you see this one coming? |
**David Flanagan:** Of course, of course. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Okay. \[laughs\] |
**David Flanagan:** I always look back at my career, and I've always worked for relatively small shops. Every time I write a line of code, I've always been responsible for the deployment to production. And I've never had that throw over the wall scenario. |
So infrastructure as code and continuous integration and deployment - these are just things that I've always had to do. I've never been able to dodge that bullet, unfortunately. I think I cut my teeth like the rest of us using TerraForm and HCL, and I think -- TerraForm is a fantastic tool. No one's ever gonna say othe... |
\[01:19:54.29\] Now, I know with TerraForm 0.10 they started to bring in some of these primitives, but these primitives already exist in high-level programming languages, which is where Pulumi shines. It comes down and it says "Well, you can just define your resource graph using the language that you're familiar with."... |
So there's all these languages that already have loops, conditionals, the ability to provide a single func-That's my favorite thing on Pulumi. So I'm going a little scarbridge but been able to say I want a Kubernetes cluster on GCP, and I want different node pools that look like this. And I want a load balancer, and I ... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** So this is really interesting, from multiple perspectives. I see a couple of products, tools, however you wanna call them, enter this space in recent months... One which is top of my mind, which is, by the way, an episode that's going to ship, I think, this week. I mean, by the time you're listening, ... |
**David Flanagan:** Yeah, the XRDs. So you can actually have a single resource, but then create multiple sub-resources below it. I think they're called compositions, or XRDs. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Yeah. And there's like another name... So it's two things. The compositions are the things that you can bind them in... But they have these providers, they interact with all the IAAS's you can declare you Yaml, so you declare you GK cluster in Google, and it just makes it happen, and all the other thi... |
And CUE - I mean, it is kind of a programming language, but it's more like a data language; that's the way I see it. And I know that you know a bit more about CUE with Brian Ketelsen. You have CUE Blocks? |
**David Flanagan:** Yeah, Brian Ketelsen and I are the creators and maintainers of CUE Blocks. We're both huge fans of CUE. We think it's just a great language for defining schema, applying constraints, and even doing some basic comprehensions and mathematics with them. |
So it's not a Turing-complete programming language, but they are starting to add more query APIs and other things to bring it in line with some of that. |
So I really like Dagger... I have done an episode with Solomon on Rawkode Live, where we dug into Dagger and we did some deployments. I think it's a really good tool, and I love seeing CUE used in this way. It's very similar to TerraForm, in the regards of that you have to have something that understands the abstract f... |
You're still constrained in that you can't do a lot of conditional logic. Loop logic does exist in CUE, and you can do some things like that... But then modifying things within the loop gets a bit difficult, because you've only got access to that array count. So it depends on your use case. But I think Dagger is great,... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** \[01:24:12.25\] No. |
**David Flanagan:** But I think that second step is like "Okay, we provide the platform or the infrastructure, but what about the applications that then belong and live on that application?" And that's where Boundary comes in, fulfilling the continuous delivery component of your application. And Dagger kind of moves ri... |
Crossplane things get really interesting. Crossplane still has defined -- you're still constrained by Yaml. You can only see so much that is not programming, but you're not gonna be able to provide a function that does a thing, but you can provide a composite resource that does a thing. |
What I really love about Crossplane is that continuous reconciliation. That's something Pulumi doesn't do yet, as well and it's the first thing I wanna change and I'm gonna be like "We need to get into this space." |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Oh, yes. |
**David Flanagan:** We have to control the actual reconciliation, and not just the client-side reconciliation. So I think Crossplane is killing it there. I don't think any other product is as good as Crossplane in that regard. The fact that I can have that controller running on my Kubernetes cluster, if I delete an S3 ... |
And Dagger is great. Solomon and the team are fantastic. It's still not a programming language, but you can still do some really cool things with CUE. I think where Dagger is going to excel is that if something is difficult to do with TerraForm, and even difficult to do with Crossplane, you have to have the provider fi... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** The other tool that I've seen take a similar approach is CDK from Amazon, where you get to declare your infrastructure using a higher-level language. TypeScript - I know that's something which is pushed at Amazon, which makes sense, with CDK... I've used it briefly; it was okay. Way better than using ... |
It's interesting that you run it client-side. And when you say client-side, I imagine the CI could run it as well if it has all the secrets, but still, it's not built into the product. So that's interesting. Maybe there's a Pulumi cloud? I don't know. I don't know enough about Pulumi is what I'm getting at; and also, w... |
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