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**Ian Lopshire:** How's it going? |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** I'm good. How are you all doing? |
**Ian Lopshire:** Doing well. |
**Kris Brandow:** It's a beautiful, but very warm day, the end of May. It's like 90 degrees outside, so it's quite sweltering. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Here, it's freezing. It's a single-digit Celsius this morning. |
**Kris Brandow:** Ooh. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Which is not far from snow, but far enough definitely not to happen. So today, this episode is our news episode, and you can see that because I'm holding a pen; I see all these news anchors do that. So we will be talking about what is new and interesting in the Go world, and we'll cover four in... |
Okay, so a first thing that many of us probably saw in an email or an announcement or in a tweet is that GopherCon US is moving from Florida to Chicago. And from the end of September to the beginning of October, specifically October 6th through 8th. And the reason of that being is that in Florida two bills were passed ... |
**Kris Brandow:** \[04:20\] Yeah. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** So for those of us from not the US, can you say how much of my knowledge is up to date or correct? |
**Kris Brandow:** Yeah, the Don't Say Gay bill - I think it has been passed in Florida. It's one of those weirdly, vaguely-worded bills as well where it's just like, "You're not allowed to talk about gender identity in school", but clearly targeted at, "We don't want kids hearing about gayness and queerness when they'r... |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** As a conference organizer myself, I can say that this is definitely an expensive decision. Just not doing a conference in the place where we plan to do it due to a simple reason like COVID back in 2020 - that was a huge headache, and definite financial implications to that, so I can only imagin... |
**Ian Lopshire:** I think this is a good move. I think it's representative of our community, and I think it's kind of brave of them to do it despite the cost, and looking forward to going to Chicago. |
**Kris Brandow:** Fingers crossed as well, that by the time October rolls around that we're not in the middle of another spike with COVID, because I think that'll also be a thing that people have to kind of like wonder about now... Because it felt like we were through all of this, and they did an announcement to bring ... |
So I think it's the same sort of thing of like, okay, well, even if it's in Chicago, if they're still like, "We have a giant COVID spike and a lot of our travelers are international, are they going to be able to get into the country? If they do, are they going to be able to get back into their home countries easily? So... |
**Ian Lopshire:** Yeah. I do realize that in-person conferences are a huge risk. I think we just saw that with the Kubernetes Conference, and all that. But there is not a replacement for the in-person. I wouldn't know you, Kris, if I didn't go to one of these conferences. There's just not a replacement for it, so I am ... |
**Kris Brandow:** Yeah. And hopefully in future years we won't have as many problems... With COVID, at least. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Yeah. Yeah. So I heard about the Google DDoS. What happened? ...for those who have not read about that. |
**Kris Brandow:** Yeah. So apparently, this is a knock-on effect of the design of modules. So for those of you that don't know how the internals of-- I hear you sigh, Ian... \[laughter\] So for those of you that don't know what came with the module system is we got this thing of module proxies, and there's the big one ... |
And there's this one Git hosting site called - what's it? SourceHut... And they've been getting-- about 5% of their overall traffic is just the Go module proxy hitting them and downloading the Go Git repositories that are hosted on their surface, which is a tremendous amount of traffic. I mean, at the end of the day, t... |
\[08:02\] So basically, they're just getting DDoSed every day by this module proxy that exists. And I think this is another thing... I promise I'll get off my inclusion soapbox eventually, but this person didn't just write a blog post whining about this, they did try and actually go to the maintainers of Go and be like... |
**Ian Lopshire:** Yeah. Google's answer to this is like, "Hey, email us and give us your domain and we'll block the periodic refresh to your servers. We'll stop doing that. But you have to submit a ticket or email us." It doesn't seem scalable. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Or DDoS with requests. |
**Ian Lopshire:** Exactly. And Kris, you said it was a result of the module system. I'm not sure I totally agree with that take. I think it's more a result of however Google has under the hood created this proxy. But yeah, SourceHut is seeing multiple requests for the same module, like multiple times a minute. So obvio... |
**Kris Brandow:** I think you're right there that it's not part of modules, but I feel like if modules had been designed slightly differently. Modules, at the end of the day, are designed to be agnostic of like Git, or any of this stuff. So I feel like it's like a small failing there that the proxies weren't designed i... |
But either way, this type of stuff, if you wanted to self-host your own modules via Git repository, this is going to hit you and you're going to have to pay the cost of this thing just coming back and just doing useless polls of your Git repository. Especially if you have large projects, it's gong to cost you a lot of ... |
In our way, it's a kind of like, if you're someone that doesn't necessarily want to put all your stuff on GitHub, or you don't want to put it on GitLab or any of these other centrally hosted services, you're kind of just stuck, I guess, dealing with this extra cost. It's like a tax that you have to pay for not wanting ... |
**Ian Lopshire:** To me, this kind of brings up the issue like, why is the module proxy controlled by Google? Why is it close sourced? Why can't we go look and see why this traffic is happening? It seems at odds with the principles of our community. |
**Kris Brandow:** Yeah. Which is really weird too, because I remember in the early days, there was Athens, there were all these other projects that are still around, but just not nearly as active, that were there. So it does feel a little weird that it's just like this piece of infrastructure is owned and operated by G... |
To me as a gopher, it feels weird that Google has used its position to put something into the Go ecosystem that people can't really change. People can change it, but they just don't know about it. So by using Go by default, you're just opting into this module proxy, when they could have done a different way. They could... |
\[12:19\] So there's these steps that have been happening that just make it feel like Google is trying to wrangle control over Go again, which just doesn't really feel good for an open source community project... Especially when their answer to, "Hey, there are these problems with this thing that you built that you are... |
**Break:** \[13:00\] |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** The next thing we will chat about is the article that reflects about Go, and was written by the five creators at the Association of Computer Machinery magazine. And that article was recapping who were the early users of Go, why the users chose to stay, and what were the design decisions that ma... |
**Kris Brandow:** There is one thing I want to point out real quick before we jump into it - I did find it interesting that Russ Cox and Ian Lance Taylor are included here as the core people that helped create the language, because I think it's always like... You know, when you think about it, you think it's like, okay... |
To answer the question you had, I think the early users of Go I think were probably a mix of people that were really interested in this idea of a programming language that has this core of simplicity. I think around the same time the early versions of Go started to become popular was the same time that Rich Hickey had ... |
\[16:13\] There was a lot of thought in the software engineering ecosystem and world about how do we simplify software? How do we make it easier to build things and not have all of this complexity that comes with other languages? So I think -- at least I know for myself and a bunch of people I know, that was one of the... |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** That would be my next question - when and why did you join? |
**Kris Brandow:** Ian, do you want to take that first? |
**Ian Lopshire:** Sure. I think-- |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** I wanted to hear Ian's first. If you want to answer then also-- if you want to share in addition, who do you recognize as the early users would be interesting, too. Or why did they come-- what did they like in the language? Some of the early people. |
**Ian Lopshire:** Yeah, so I don't have much familiarity - I can't even say the word - with the people. I think I came to Go a little bit later, like Go 1.8 maybe, 1.5, something like that. The way I came to it was basically my company said, "Hey, you've got the choice between Go and C\#", and I went Go... I mean, for ... |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Yeah. |
**Ian Lopshire:** Yeah. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Yeah, yeah. |
**Ian Lopshire:** Sorry, that was the worst answer I've done so far. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** No, that's a perfect ramp to my next question... But first, Kris, do you want to share when and why did you join Go? |
**Kris Brandow:** Yes. I think I've shared it a number of times, actually. So the main thing is when I started my career, I was writing a lot of Drupal, PHP. It was very, very, very complex. And this one day I went to this full-stackgineering meetup where I met Sam Boyer. And Sam and I were both in the Drupal community... |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** You should go test it. |
**Kris Brandow:** Go test Go. That's literally how it happened. It's just like, Sam Boyer-- I just met him one night and he was literally like, "Hey, I think you'd like this other thing. I understand your frustrations." And then basically, I think a couple months later-- or not even a couple, I think a couple weeks lat... |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** So Ian and Kris, you've both mentioned simplicity, and that's very interesting. I had a conversation last week with VP on R&D of a Berliner startup that is doing mostly B2B things. And I always like asking people if they use Go, and if they say no, whether they evaluated that, and if they say y... |
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