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**Kris Brandow:** \[19:59\] I think it comes down to how you see simplicity, because I think simplicity is one of those words that's like really, really slippery. Python, along a lot of domains along a lot of axes, is a simple language, but it's not simple in the way that Go is simple, right? Go is simple in-- if you h... |
I think for a lot of years, there was this kind of marketing of Go that was like, "Oh, we have goroutines and channels." I remember even myself sitting down and writing tons of code with channels all over the place, and it felt awful; like, absolutely awful. And I was like, "Oh, I've made this mistake. I will not make ... |
I think other languages probably would've made it so that you could keep just using channels everywhere, because like "Hey, this is like a core feature of the language. It's like a nice thing. We'll just bolt some more features onto channels." I think there's been multiple proposals to make things like error handling w... |
So it's simple in that way, not necessarily that it's simple to get started with, or simple to bootstrap an application with. There are certainly other languages that are easier for that. It's also quite simple to learn at the end of the day as well. I think most people can at least pick up a majority of the syntax in ... |
**Ian Lopshire:** I saw some comments on -- I think it was on this actual article, where part of the simplicity is also the density per line. Every line is simple. Does that make sense? There's not these 40 ternary statements long, where I don't know what's returning. That's one of the big parts of the simplicity to me... |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Even the format thing being the same everywhere. |
**Ian Lopshire:** Exactly. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Always dive to that familiar pattern. |
**Ian Lopshire:** Exactly. And they kind of talk about that in the article, where they say part of the reason it stayed around is the environment, right? All the great tooling, all the great -- like Go format, Go... |
**Kris Brandow:** Yeah. I remember -- I don't know if it was a talk Andrew Gerrand gave, or if I was just talking to him, but I remember this comment he made about... No, I think it definitely was in one of his talks, where he was talking about how he went and looked at a bunch of Go on GitHub, and found out that all t... |
It was novel, very novel at the time for a language to ship with a formatter that was just very easy to run, and that you were expected to run, and there's no negotiation. It's like, "Oh, but I like to put brackets on the next line." "Well, too bad. You're not allowed to do that." And if you do that, someone else will ... |
\[23:50\] So that's another element of simplicity there, because then it's like if you go to any codebase you find in GitHub and you can just read it. You're not annoyed because the brackets are in different lines, or there's some other spacing issue that you don't like, that you would prefer to be a different way. No,... |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Yeah. I'm doing these days more Python than Go, unfortunately... And one of the reasons is that, as you mentioned, Kris, that this is a quick language to just ship things fast, and then later deal with the consequences. Not necessarily very happy with that, but disagree and commit. |
I do feel that after so many years of doing only Go, the same pattern, always recognizing whatever codebase you're entering, like new company, existing company, this is just so confusing. I spend so much time that feels unnecessary or just realizing like, where am I? What is the fancy line doing? Like you said, Ian, ea... |
And I think that also the fact that Go is so consistent and always looks the same is very useful when we are in this stage, where tools like Copilot are being introduced into our world as developers. This is something that is super-easy to use with Go, because it will always do the right thing. But with different langu... |
**Ian Lopshire:** Yeah, that's a great point with the Copilot. I hadn't thought about using Copilot in a different language, and it just spits out code and you're like, "What is this?!" |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** You're from a different story. |
**Ian Lopshire:** That's just not how I do it. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Yeah. |
**Kris Brandow:** Yeah. |
**Break:** \[26:02\] |
**Kris Brandow:** We did get some nice commentary from Bill Kennedy in the Go Time channel. Shout-out to the Go Time channel. If you're in Gopher Slack, you should join GoTimeFM. That's where we're always hanging out when we're doing the live recordings for this. I'll just read what he said, and then we can discuss it ... |
And I do understand that sentiment. I think I agree with Bill there, and I am happy that this exists. I think that for the community at large, this is great. Having a module proxy, making it so that you don't have to configure it is absolutely fantastic. I see how they arrived at the decision to just include it in the ... |
**Ian Lopshire:** Yeah, I do think it's really easy to forget how much monetary support these big companies do provide communities like Go, right? And I do think we should be grateful, in some regards. But in other regards, they're not doing this solely out of goodwill. |
**Kris Brandow:** Philanthropy. |
**Ian Lopshire:** Yeah, exactly. They are getting something in return, right? Having Go as a strong community provides them programmers they can hire, expands the job pool... It does a lot of different things for Google. So I also don't want to forget that it's also a benefit for them to have a strong community. We do ... |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** And also it's a good point of having something that is the stable thing to go to, pros and cons. |
**Kris Brandow:** Yeah. So I think my larger take on this is that I do agree, we should be thankful for them for putting out the effort to do this, but I also think that when it comes to underrepresented communities or underrepresented people, we're always like a small minority of things. So whenever something like thi... |
\[32:07\] But I think the thing I was trying to point out here is that this is like an actual trade-off that happens, at the end of the day, and big companies have a habit of doing this sort of thing and harming underrepresented communities by doing this sort of thing. And if we just keep going on thanking them for eve... |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** And it's more, responsive. Thank you, Bill, for being a member of this conversation in some way. This is interesting. |
**Ian Lopshire:** Bill does bring up something nice. It's a small team, very little runway... That probably is something we forget. Even behind these big companies are just people on teams. |
**Kris Brandow:** Yeah. And that's the same thing, too. It's like, oh, well, at the end of the day, the Go team is also a minority. They are very small. There's a couple million gophers and there's a couple dozen people on the Go team. So it's like, they need to be prioritized as well, and what they can do needs to be ... |
Thank you so much, Bill, for bringing this up. I think it's super-important to have a more balanced look. I can see how what I said was a little bit maybe too much on the other side of things... But yeah, and I also love this type of discussion that we get to have with our listeners in GoTimeFM. So if you're not in the... |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** And a shout-out to Google for this. Reading what Bill wrote more as we were chatting, "Google has provided GoBridge over 200K in donations over the past three years, which is amazing and it always translated people coming to conferences or being able to do things that they would not be able to ... |
**Kris Brandow:** Yeah. And we do have one more topic that we want to get to, so... |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Which can maybe act as a potentially unpopular opinion, maybe yes, maybe not... A recent proposal by Thomas Eckert on lightweight anonymous function syntax. |
**Kris Brandow:** He pointed it out to us. I don't know if he made the actual proposal though. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Definitely worth-- |
**Kris Brandow:** He sent it to us. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** ...checking again before I'm saying it wrong. Thank you for pointing this out. Maybe this can be corrected afterwards. This proposal seems back in the milieu. Let's chat about that in our remaining five minutes. |
**Ian Lopshire:** Yes. I think this proposal is getting a lot of conversation, because it's somewhat polarizing. Would you agree with that? Some people love it, some people hate it. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** \[36:13\] That's why it's made our way to be our somewhat of an unpopular opinion... |
**Ian Lopshire:** Yeah. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** ...for today, given it's all hosts today. |
Ian Lopshire:: Personally, I am a fan. |
**Kris Brandow:** I mean, especially the part that Robert Griesemer has done in the last 12 days - I love this. I think before I would've been kind of against it, but I think, once again, used appropriately, used judiciously, I think this could help clean up a lot of code. There's definitely some things I've done befor... |
**Ian Lopshire:** Should we take a second and explain what this proposal actually is? |
**Kris Brandow:** Yes. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Yes. And mention - thanks to Bill's feedback - that this is an old feature request that recently resurfaced. Yeah. |
**Kris Brandow:** Yes. So basically, Robert Griesemer, in this issue, which we'll have linked, brought up this idea of having basically a more concise way to define functions. Similar to the fat arrow syntax that is in JavaScript, he basically gave us like two different examples of how to do this... Mostly either a lot... |
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