text stringlengths 0 2.35k |
|---|
[1752.96 --> 1754.44] Another thing that I don't like about Go, |
[1754.58 --> 1755.62] I mean, it's a good thing, right? |
[1755.66 --> 1758.42] I don't like it as a reverse engineer, is the Go routines. |
[1759.06 --> 1760.84] Yes, this would have been my next question. |
[1761.06 --> 1762.28] Yes, please do elaborate. |
[1762.96 --> 1763.40] Great. |
[1763.50 --> 1768.00] So it seems like a very, very easy way to create threaded programs, |
[1768.00 --> 1772.14] as far as I understand, which is great as far as developers go. |
[1772.46 --> 1776.14] But it makes it a bit too easy for malware developers to create threaded programs as well. |
[1776.76 --> 1779.46] And when it comes to understanding what a program does, |
[1779.56 --> 1781.02] we really like linear programs. |
[1781.16 --> 1784.36] We want instructions that we can look at one after the other. |
[1784.54 --> 1786.50] We want programs that we can debug very easily. |
[1787.14 --> 1790.48] And as soon as many things start happening in many threads, |
[1790.48 --> 1794.18] then, oh my God, following things around becomes extremely, extremely difficult. |
[1794.18 --> 1799.28] So I would actually like for threaded programs to be more difficult to write |
[1799.28 --> 1803.10] and to be less available for attackers, if that were an option. |
[1803.44 --> 1808.94] How do threads represent themselves visually when you do reverse engineering? |
[1809.42 --> 1813.44] Well, they don't really represent themselves because threads as a concept, |
[1813.60 --> 1816.58] they are a fundamentally runtime object, right? |
[1816.86 --> 1821.26] A thread is going to be a unit of execution that is going to run some code. |
[1821.26 --> 1825.00] And when you have a single thread, which is the case for a lot of programs, |
[1825.20 --> 1828.20] then you can just follow what is going on in the code linearly. |
[1828.38 --> 1829.82] And then you figure out what is going on. |
[1829.88 --> 1833.98] When you have several threads, then this is really an order of magnitude, |
[1833.98 --> 1839.90] more of complexity that you have to wade through in the sense that as a reverse engineer, |
[1840.04 --> 1843.50] you don't only have to think about what is going on in the program |
[1843.50 --> 1845.06] or in the function that you are reading, |
[1845.18 --> 1848.32] but at all times you have to think about the fact that there might be |
[1848.32 --> 1851.22] another thread running somewhere that might be doing things |
[1851.22 --> 1853.60] that are affecting what you are doing right now |
[1853.60 --> 1855.96] or what the current function that you are reading is doing. |
[1856.12 --> 1859.84] And so you do not have the luxury of, I think, |
[1859.90 --> 1861.84] all the information that you need in a single place. |
[1862.14 --> 1864.62] The functionality, the intelligence of the program |
[1864.62 --> 1867.58] ends up being spread over different units of execution. |
[1868.44 --> 1870.68] And you have to keep everything in your head |
[1870.68 --> 1873.46] to have any hope of understanding what is going on. |
[1873.46 --> 1878.38] So this is really a very heavy mental tax that is imposed on the reverse engineer. |
[1878.90 --> 1880.82] And of course, the more threats there are, |
[1880.84 --> 1883.52] then the more effort that you have to go through |
[1883.52 --> 1886.02] to try to keep track of everything that is going on. |
[1886.58 --> 1889.62] But one good example of this is a Go program |
[1889.62 --> 1891.22] that I mentioned in the previous podcast. |
[1891.52 --> 1892.76] It's called Stow Away. |
[1893.30 --> 1895.82] And this is a open source project |
[1895.82 --> 1900.16] that is used to do various proxying operations |
[1900.16 --> 1902.34] as a pen testing tool, right? |
[1902.36 --> 1904.78] You can create tunnels, SOX proxies, et cetera, |
[1904.90 --> 1906.22] and probably pipe them with each other. |
[1906.28 --> 1907.02] I'm not exactly sure. |
[1907.50 --> 1908.98] But what I'm sure of is that |
[1908.98 --> 1910.76] when I was reading the program assembly, |
[1911.34 --> 1912.86] it felt very, very miserable |
[1912.86 --> 1914.76] because it was obvious that many things |
[1914.76 --> 1916.06] were happening at the same time, |
[1916.36 --> 1917.74] which, of course, is going to be the case |
[1917.74 --> 1919.98] because when you have some network program, |
[1920.10 --> 1923.04] then packets can arrive from any end of the various tunnels. |
[1923.04 --> 1925.30] And you can also have many tunnels running at the same time. |
[1925.64 --> 1928.88] So you have all these things taking place at the same time |
[1928.88 --> 1932.44] and trying to figure out exactly what does what |
[1932.44 --> 1933.66] is extremely difficult. |
[1933.88 --> 1936.66] And if I hadn't been able to figure out |
[1936.66 --> 1938.42] that this was actually an open source project |
[1938.42 --> 1940.42] for which I was able to go find the code, |
[1940.92 --> 1943.76] then probably I might not have been able to figure out |
[1943.76 --> 1945.50] everything that the program was doing at all |
[1945.50 --> 1947.40] because there was just too much to work through |
[1947.40 --> 1949.36] and too much to remember |
[1949.36 --> 1952.08] because my memory is actually quite limited, |
[1952.52 --> 1954.30] as is the memory of any human being |
[1954.30 --> 1955.52] compared to a computer, really. |
[1955.94 --> 1957.06] Until we start upgrading. |
[1957.64 --> 1958.70] Yeah, I wish. |
[1958.88 --> 1961.90] All the interesting terms that you're mentioning, |
[1962.10 --> 1964.14] like APT and also Stowaway, |
[1964.20 --> 1965.32] which you're reminded now, |
[1965.66 --> 1967.88] it will be in the show notes |
[1967.88 --> 1970.26] for those who want to look back at that |
[1970.26 --> 1974.16] and see how can they handle threads |
[1974.16 --> 1975.34] in reverse engineering. |
[1975.54 --> 1975.66] Yeah. |
[1975.74 --> 1978.38] It will be interesting to see some example |
[1978.38 --> 1980.06] of how that actually looks |
[1980.06 --> 1982.04] because you said that this kind of can |
[1982.04 --> 1984.06] tint the results and whatnot. |
[1984.28 --> 1987.32] If you maybe like there's data dependency |
[1987.32 --> 1988.06] between the two, |
[1988.14 --> 1990.30] but I still try to visualize and understand. |
[1990.82 --> 1992.40] So I'm referring back to the video |
[1992.40 --> 1994.10] that you have published on YouTube, |
[1994.10 --> 1995.04] which I will also link |
[1995.04 --> 1997.30] of your reverse engineering AGO program. |
[1997.30 --> 1999.50] And you kind of build this block diagram |
[1999.50 --> 2000.64] of the different steps |
[2000.64 --> 2002.18] and you write what's happening there, |
[2002.26 --> 2003.34] what you guess and so on. |
[2003.34 --> 2005.50] So affecting the results |
[2005.50 --> 2006.60] by sharing some data |
Subsets and Splits
No community queries yet
The top public SQL queries from the community will appear here once available.