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And one of the things that I think really I don't want us to take for granted is that -- basically, once I started sort of getting more involved in the community, and this basically started taking hold after the first one for me, because the community was so small at the time, I immediately saw the opportunity, based o... |
And I think the people that are really involved, the people you know now, that have been longtime gophers - I think there was this implicit sort of decision on the part of all of us that says, "Hey, you know what - let us all collectively make this community what we'd like it to actually be in the future. Let's try to ... |
We want you to come for the technology, but stay for the people. Because the people are really what's going to make the whole experience much better for you, whether it be a colleague, a co-worker or open source contributor that you happen to be working on something with; whatever that interaction is, we want it to be ... |
I think this is something that's very important to us as community leaders, and I think that's something that, you know, whether Erik wanted it to be or not, that is what we've become, and I hope you do like where we're going, Erik, as far as conferences go. |
**Erik St. Martin:** \[46:23\] Yeah. I mean, I like the community aspect... Prior to the pandemic, I had dreams about another conference I wanted to start too, for similar reasons. Conferences - you know, they're very community-focused, versus ones that very much are sales machines... And they are what they are, and th... |
So I like where we're going, but it's interesting - you said about the number of new people... I mean, all of the OG gophers, so to speak, if most of them walked into a new Go conference, the only people who are probably going to recognize them are other OG gophers, right? |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Right. Exactly. \[laughs\] |
**Erik St. Martin:** We've hit that point of sort of like critical mass. We all looked up to and admired, and have since gone on to do other things. People wouldn't even recognize their name, right? It's not good or bad. It's just the evolution of a technology once you hit a point of like critical mass, where it just e... |
**Angelica Hill:** So I want to kind of press on the community aspect a little bit harder; not to be a skeptic, but there are many communities that say they're very inclusive, they say they're very diverse, they say they're very welcome to all, but in practice they turn out not to be. So I'd love a little bit to hear a... |
**Erik St. Martin:** Yeah, so that's a hard one, right? Because I don't claim to be an expert here. And we're all doing -- I can't say all, but most of us are doing our best to do what's right for other people, and to advocate for them, and things like that. And we're gonna screw up, right? Like, it happens. We're huma... |
I think the other part is about -- we like to talk about being an ally, but I think for most people, it's very fair weather, right? Like, it's easy to be an ally when it requires words, right? It's much harder to do those things when there's real sacrifice needed, or you're exposing yourself to a ton of risk. And so th... |
\[50:22\] I think that when we look at the tech community and things like that, and even just people who mean a lot to me, that are very close to me, that are impacted by all of these changes - looking at Florida, it just doesn't align with our values, right? Like, we put up a code of conduct, and we talk about how we ... |
Some people may argue that, "What does that really do?" Right? Ron DeSantis isn't going to be like "Oh, GopherCon's leaving. We should reevaluate these laws." But it may not matter to them, but it matters to us, all of us who are part of the community. And it's a slightly different use of the phrase, but the law of two... |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Do you think we'll swing back over to San Diego at some point? That was my favorite spot, by the way... When we had it there. |
**Erik St. Martin:** Yeah, so one of the things -- like, when we talk about the complexities and logistics and stuff, what a lot of people don't realize is the number of years in advance. I think we're contracted up to like 2025, like, going into the pandemic... And so there's a lot of complications in all of that. So ... |
And I should also clarify too, when we talk about sort of like acceptance and things like that too, and people doing their best, is there's a lot - and we don't have a lot of time here to go into the risks associated with running conferences and things like that... It's important to remember that while we made this dec... |
So we have to have a critical eye on speaking with our feet, and not attending conferences that are just putting people with sexual harassment issues and things like that on stage, and stuff like that. We have to be very careful about -- we don't want to support conferences like that. But on the flip side, we have to u... |
And so we have to kind of give people a little space and support too when they don't do these things, and try to understand that - are these the type of people who would do something like... I don't know. Like I said, these things are complicated, and I don't claim to be an expert. We made the decision because like thi... |
\[54:11\] And these things take a long time, right? So even if somebody wants to do something, you don't just like make this decision on a whim. You have people reviewing contracts, and lawyers, and all of this stuff. They're not quick decisions. Even if you were already doing it, you can't make an announcement until y... |
Don't get me wrong, publicly asking people like "Hey, what are you going to do about this? We don't agree with this scenario." Like, absolutely. Call people on that stuff. Let them know that that stuff's important to you. But also, you've gotta understand that these things -- if we have to sign a contract five years ou... |
**Angelica Hill:** Well, regrettably, we are coming to near the end of our time. I feel like there are so many more questions I want answers... But I have one more question to ask, which is - for anyone who's thinking about like "Should I, shouldn't I go to GopherCon this year?", why should they go? |
**Erik St. Martin:** Because it's awesome. |
**Angelica Hill:** Okay. \[laughs\] |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Clearly. |
**Angelica Hill:** D'oh... |
**Erik St. Martin:** I think, to Johnny's point, the networking aspect of conferences is huge. And I know we have digital means of communication, but it's not quite the same. And the interesting thing that I always find about attending conferences - and GopherCon is a conference that does this for me, but lots of confe... |
So I think, absolutely, if you can, please attend. If you can't, that's awesome, too; we totally understand, we're in the middle of some of the most challenging times for people, and everybody's situations are different... We recognize there's still risk in the pandemic, and we do our best to mitigate that stuff as bes... |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** I just can't wait to hang out with my friends again, and then make new ones. I'm tired of the endless Zooms, and the Hangouts, and the virtual thing... And I will acknowledge that for some, the virtual aspect of a conference is actually a good thing. It's allowed people to basically virtually att... |
Ideally, we want to be able to support kind of both things for those who are able to make it on-site, and sort of get that full, immersive experience of actually physically hanging out with people. Hopefully, we can support both. I think that's sort of the best of both worlds kind of thing. But for me, really, it's the... |
**Angelica Hill:** \[57:56\] Awesome. Well, I'm very excited. I would very much encourage anyone, I would mimic what you both said - if you can't go this year, please look to GopherCon in the future as a conference that would welcome you, that is wonderful to attend. As I said, I'm very excited to see where my involvem... |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Nice. |
**Angelica Hill:** So I would say it can truly change your life. And I mean that from the bottom of my heart, from anyone who remotely knows me. Awesome. So now we're on to the -- not the best part of this discussion, because I think the whole chat was great; but the part that I'm intrigued to hear, which is unpopular ... |
**Jingle:** \[58:45\] to \[59:03\] |
**Angelica Hill:** Erik, what is your unpopular opinion? |
**Erik St. Martin:** Is it the Brooklyn-style pizza is way better than Chicago-style? And also pineapple on pizza is good. Fight me. \[laughter\] |
**Angelica Hill:** Catch me outside. |
**Erik St. Martin:** So let's use one for the industry... I actually -- you know, as a manager and things like that, and doing interviews, and I've had discussions about people who've been interviewing for new jobs, and there's always that fun one, like "Why should we hire you?" sort of ordeal. Or "Why do you want to w... |
**Angelica Hill:** Do you have a response to that, Johnny? I see you nodding your head. |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** I understand the spirit in which the question is asked... But like Erik says, I don't think I like the sort of connotation of it. If somebody is asking that, they're really -- why don't they just ask sort of the underlying thing, which is "Why do you want to work here? What value is there going t... |
\[01:01:02.07\] If I work somewhere and I happen to like the company - great, that's even better. But to tell you the truth, perhaps that is my unpopular opinion - I don't have a problem working for a company that is disliked. If the money is THAT good, right? I don't know. Because at the end of the day, you may have a... |
And again, I know that's gonna be unpopular with some folks, but you kind of have to give people space to make the decisions that are right for them and their family; not everything I do or say you'll agree with, and not every decision I make you'll agree with, and that's okay, too. Give each other some space and some ... |
**Erik St. Martin:** The ability to walk away from your job because you disagree with something that company does is a position of extreme privilege, that not everybody has. And more power to the people who are in a position to do so, and are willing to take that risk. And it's the same thing with like the moving of a ... |
It's the same thing when people quit a job, and they feel really terrible, like they owe the business their life. It's like, you should never feel guilty for doing what's best for you and your family, especially if it doesn't harm other people. Like, why even judge somebody for that? If it harms nobody, and it enriches... |
**Angelica Hill:** Moral of the story - your choices are yours. Other people's choices are their own. |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Yes... |
**Angelica Hill:** Let us all be accountable to our own choices, because we don't know what's going on with other people. And I would hope just listening to this conversation gives you an insight into the wonderful human beings that are behind GopherCon, and how considerate and thoughtful they are about the world. It h... |
**Erik St. Martin:** I'm always happy to come back. |
**Angelica Hill:** I will hold you accountable to that, Erik. I know you're very, very busy, and now you've said it. You're coming back from GopherCon very soon... |
**Erik St. Martin:** As long as nobody's like "Keep that man off the air", I'm happy to come back and discuss other things. Even if it's not GopherCon-related. |
**Angelica Hill:** Well, as long as Go Time lets me come, I'll get you on, too. And if not, we can just start another podcast. Don't tell Jerod. \[laughter\] |
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