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**Johnny Boursiquot:** People who actually say that though in real life - yeah, those are d-bags. Don't listen to that nonsense. |
**Jerod Santo:** Agreed. |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** This is something that when you're doing some introspection, and you say "Hey, what does someone like Leslie Lamport mean when he says there's a difference between a coder and a programmer", within the context of the things that he was building and actually putting together and innovating on? Wha... |
Or if you go into any other company, do they say "Oh, for these people - we consider them coders. We pay them less than those that we consider programmers." I mean, nobody actually does this, right? So it's supposed to be something that helps you -- personally, I think it's introspection. Like, am I coding, am I progra... |
**Jerod Santo:** What's wrong with programmer? |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Nothing wrong with programmer. I think engineering is -- |
**Jerod Santo:** I agree. |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** \[laughs\] I think engineering is what happens when you add time to the mix, where your decisions were good decisions back when you were coding. |
**Jerod Santo:** But that's your definition of engineer. I think that we all kind of create these definitions, because I've had these conversations with hundreds of people, and they all define it a little bit differently, and a lot of times it's positioning. And I don't think that's what he was doing. But I think what ... |
**Kris Brandow:** \[54:27\] Yeah. If you don't know who Leslie Lamport is - because he's the same person that's like "Unit testing is BS. You should be writing TLA+ instead." \[laughter\] |
**Jerod Santo:** I heard him say that. I was kind of interested in the TLA+ thing. I'm like, "Dang, am I a total loser?" |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** "Brush up on my math here..." |
**Kris Brandow:** Once again, he's a mathematician. He's like, "Why are you taking this -- oh, does addition work? Let me add 2+2, and 4+" It's like, no, just write a proof to make it work. But I think the reason what he said about coders versus programmers resonated with me so much is because it's something I think I'... |
I think there are plenty of novelists out there who are absolutely crap with the English language, and their vocabulary is super-tiny, but they tell phenomenal stories. And then there's another group of people who are absolutely fantastic with the English language, and know all of the little intricacies, and read the C... |
**Jerod Santo:** Speaking from experience? |
**Kris Brandow:** I know people who have. Not me. I tried, but... |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay... |
**Kris Brandow:** But I think for us as an industry, we're missing that. Because the writing industry - those people are called editors, and they are in some regards at the top. You think of the editor-in-chief of a newspaper - that's top dog, and that's not a person who's a writer, that's a person who's an editor. And... |
I remember I was talking to Angelica once and she mentioned how when you're in J-School, you can choose to be a writer or an editor, and you go down these different paths and you learn different things... |
**Jerod Santo:** Sure. |
**Kris Brandow:** ...and I think that's a distinction we need to make as an industry. Because the reason we can swap these words out so easily is because we haven't taken the time to really say "Does the distinction between these two roles matter?" And I think it does. |
I've run into a lot of people who are excellent at taking code that's written and making it phenomenally better, getting better algorithms in there, making it cleaner, doing all that sort of stuff. But if you ask them to write the code themselves, they'll be like "I don't know..." They'll be like, "That's not what I do... |
**Jerod Santo:** I think that's fair, and I do think he was being introspective, like Johnny says. I don't think he was being obtuse, or damaging in any way. I agree with you, Kris; I think that we need to go through that work... If we could go through that work and have an RFC or a spec that says "Here's what these di... |
**Kris Brandow:** Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. We should be looking at these as positions on equal footing, not as like "Oh, you're a coder? You're not as good as me." I hate it. I don't like when people do those things. Anyway... |
**Jerod Santo:** Alright, sorry for throwing that bomb in there when you were trying to transition... |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** \[laughs\] Last minute, he's like "Yeah, hey guys..." |
**Kris Brandow:** Are you supposed to be the one that's keeping us on time? \[laughter\] |
**Jerod Santo:** I'll edit this whole part out... |
**Kris Brandow:** Okay, time for unpopular opinions... |
**Jingle:** \[57:51\] |
**Kris Brandow:** Alright... Ian, do you have an unpopular opinion? |
**Ian Lopshire:** I think I do, actually. |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Hang on... |
**Jerod Santo:** Alright...! |
**Kris Brandow:** Becomes a host, and now all of a sudden he has unpopular opinions... |
**Jerod Santo:** He's official... |
**Ian Lopshire:** Alright, so I've seen a lot of pushback on Twitter and everywhere about this idea of like a take-home project during interviews. I think that's okay. I think a take-home project is fine. I think there should be a time limit; if it's more than 3-4 hours, it should be paid. But I think that take-home pr... |
**Kris Brandow:** I will agree with you, but only if it's actually something that has to do with what the company does, so no LeetCoding, none of that nonsense... And also, if the person doesn't have a crapload of open source code out there. The thing that is annoying is when it's like "Look, there's all of these examp... |
**Ian Lopshire:** Of course. |
**Kris Brandow:** None of this "Get this back to me in a week." If it takes them a month, it takes them a month. |
**Ian Lopshire:** And by take-home project I don't mean any kind of LeetCoding thing, but an actual... I've had it where I've done an issue on a public repo, that kind of stuff. I think that's one of the best ways to do it. |
**Jerod Santo:** So I would agree with you here... So you've got two for two. |
**Ian Lopshire:** So maybe it is popular... |
**Jerod Santo:** There's good ways of doing it and bad ways of doing it. We had Jacob Kaplan-Moss on the Changelog - I'll link that up - talking about principles for hiring engineers... He's put a lot of thought and time into this process; he's been hiring for a very long time... And he has these rules that you can fol... |
He also describes how hard of a problem it is, finding out if somebody is a good match. So I'll link that up; it's worth listening to if you haven't yet. Johnny, are you with him? Can we go full-panel-agreement? |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Yeah, I think especially when you start to rank from worst to best practice around this stuff, I'd definitely pick a take-home instead of a "Let's flip this binary tree together on this whiteboard" kind of thing. |
**Jerod Santo:** On a whiteboard, yeah... Too popular, Ian. |
**Ian Lopshire:** So a popular opinion. My bad, my bad. |
**Kris Brandow:** \[laughs\] I do feel though that people when they go to vote on the Twitter poll, they'll probably be like "No!" We added a lot of nuance to that unpopular opinion, so... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, we'll cut all that out, too. \[laughter\] |
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