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• The EU has fewer issues with lawyers defending against clients they know, but still a problem |
• High trust environments vs low trust environments is a real thing in law and affects code ownership |
• There are specific considerations when it comes to ownership of code in Go software engineering language |
• Go's packaging system can have implications for brain compatibility with other languages' package managers |
• Adversarial relationship between a person and an open-source community |
• Entitlement vs ownership in open-source communities |
• The concept of "use" translating into ownership of someone else's time |
• Scalability issues with open-source models and complex security measures |
• Balancing technical sense with social implications in open-source development |
• Issues with open-source software maintenance and development |
• Concerns about bias towards consumer needs over provider/maintainer needs in open-source ecosystems |
• Potential effects on community ability to maintain and build open-source projects |
• Comparison of different ecosystems' struggles with similar issues |
• Importance of sharing knowledge and resources across language ecosystems |
• Discussion of challenges faced by maintainers, including burnout and lack of recourse for fixing bugs or managing updates |
• Legal ownership vs cultural ownership and responsibility |
• Importance of considering cultural problems in legal solutions |
• Straddling the gap between law and culture as a lawyer's strength |
• Open source and machine learning overlap, including questions about warranties and EU regulation |
• Collaboration and selflessness in open source and industry as a whole |
• Unpopular opinions shared by guests on an episode |
• Paying for free software, citing human decency as a reason |
• Volunteer-created metadata, questioning motivations and effectiveness |
• Hiring librarians in tech companies to organize and manage information |
• The importance of organized data in business decision-making and employee satisfaction |
• The hosts discuss the importance of indexes in books and how they help readers find specific information. |
• The guest, Lewis, explains that creating effective indexes is a challenging task that requires human expertise. |
• The hosts compare the role of indexes to technological solutions like search algorithms and AI-powered indexing. |
• A book review on the history of indexes is mentioned as an interesting resource for learning more about this topic. |
• The conversation touches on the balance between human expertise and technology in solving problems. |
• The hosts discuss their upcoming Halloween-themed episode, featuring Matt Ryer hosting a gathering of developers telling spooky stories. |
[0.00 --> 6.04] If you manufactured a car wheel and the car wheel explodes because you used bad materials in that |
[6.04 --> 12.04] case in the car wheel, then we have some well-developed laws and intuitions around like, |
[12.14 --> 17.16] okay, well, we sue the car wheel manufacturer. Software doesn't have any of that really yet. |
[17.42 --> 21.70] We've sort of operated in this rules-free zone where everybody was like, |
[22.08 --> 28.76] software's so cool. I guess we'll just let it happen. And I think that age is coming to an end. |
[30.00 --> 38.14] This episode is brought to you by our friends at Square, developing the platform that sellers |
[38.14 --> 42.44] trust. Here's what you can do with Square. You can bridge more experiences. You can build online, |
[42.66 --> 47.24] mobile, and in-person commerce experiences that connect more customers and sellers. |
[47.62 --> 51.78] You can build custom booking solutions. You can create and track orders. You can accept payments. |
[51.78 --> 56.34] You can manage and curate inventory. You can organize customers. You can manage employees. |
[56.34 --> 62.60] You can extend Square gift cards to your app. You can use Afterpay. And all this is powered by the |
[62.60 --> 68.48] world-class Square APIs and SDKs that enable you to build full-featured business apps for yourself |
[68.48 --> 73.26] or millions of Square sellers. So much is available as a Square solutions partner. |
[73.70 --> 79.04] Learn more and get started at changelog.com slash Square. Again, changelog.com slash Square. |
[79.04 --> 101.84] Let's do it. It's go time. Welcome to go time, your source for diverse discussions from all around |
[101.84 --> 107.64] the go community. We record live each and every Tuesday at 3 p.m. U.S. Eastern. Subscribe at |
[107.64 --> 113.84] youtube.com slash changelog to be notified and join the GoTime FM channel of Go4Slack to chat along with us. |
[114.20 --> 118.90] Special thanks to our partners at Fastly for delivering GoTime super fast all around the world |
[118.90 --> 126.62] and to Fly.io. Deploy your app servers close to your users. Learn more at Fly.io. Okay, here we go. |
[126.62 --> 140.20] Hello and welcome to GoTime. Today we are going to be talking about who owns your code. A question |
[140.20 --> 144.42] that certainly has been on my mind. So we're going to be exploring who owns the code. The company, |
[144.64 --> 149.96] is it the engineer, is it the team, is it all of the open source contributors if it's a project. |
[150.30 --> 156.02] How about when you're using AI, machine learning, GitHub Copilot. Is it still your code? |
[156.68 --> 162.04] I'm really excited. We have a really brilliant guest with us today. We have Louis Veer, who is a |
[162.04 --> 168.40] programmer turned attorney who has been involved in open source since college. He's worked at |
[168.40 --> 175.26] Mazzella, where he revised the Mazzella public license at Wikimedia Foundation, where he also |
[175.26 --> 180.66] briefly led the community team. And as a lawyer, he's worked with Google, Amazon, and many other small |
[180.66 --> 186.26] startups. So currently he's the co-founder at Tidelift, which works to make open source better |
[186.26 --> 192.32] for everyone by paying maintainers. We'll hear more about that. But before that, I'd like to introduce |
[192.32 --> 197.58] our co-hosts. We have Chris. Hi, Chris. I haven't seen you in a hot second. |
[197.58 --> 205.14] Hello. I am back after a very, very long but much needed break. So I'm feeling rested and I'm ready |
[205.14 --> 209.74] to get into the meta of this Who Owns Code. It's going to be fun. |
[210.24 --> 216.14] You're ready. I'm ready. It's a very interesting topic. And the beautiful Natalie, I've seen you, |
[216.14 --> 221.88] I think, far too often for your own liking in recent weeks, my wonderful co-hosts. |
[221.92 --> 224.38] It's like our weekly one-on-one, but it's not one-on-one. |
[224.58 --> 228.06] Weekly one-on-one with anyone who decides to tune into the live. |
[228.98 --> 230.44] Weekly anyone. I like that. |
[230.58 --> 234.12] Yeah, weekly anyone. Beautiful. Me and Natalie don't do one-on-ones, we do anyone's. |
[234.76 --> 235.82] That sounds terrible. |
[239.76 --> 244.86] Lewis, would love to hear a little bit more about you and your thoughts on code ownership. |
[244.86 --> 252.20] Well, you know, it's been a long time since I wrote anything approaching useful code, |
[252.38 --> 257.72] but I've been involved. I had an interviewer ask me while I was interviewing for my first law school |
[257.72 --> 263.00] job out of law school, law firm job out of law school. And they said, well, why, you seem to |
[263.00 --> 267.88] really like tech. Why did you leave tech? And I said, look, I'm not leaving tech. Like I am only |
[267.88 --> 273.00] interviewing with law firms that are very much tech forward, tech first kind of law firms, right? |
[273.00 --> 279.50] So the goal was never to leave tech. The goal was I was at a startup, open source, back in the first |
[279.50 --> 285.46] year of the Linux desktop, I was at a small startup. We got acquired. During that acquisition process, |
[285.46 --> 292.60] I worked with the attorneys and I was arrogant. I was young. I was like, oh, I can do a better job |
[292.60 --> 297.50] than these people. So I decided after a little bit of experimenting and I took like a night school |
[297.50 --> 302.44] law class that I enjoyed, a couple of night school law classes that I enjoyed. And so I decided to go to law |
[302.44 --> 308.38] school, right? But the goal was always all along to continue to focus on tech and specifically very |
[308.38 --> 315.10] much to focus on open law, because there seemed to me at the time to be a body of lawyers who were |
[315.10 --> 322.26] sophisticated about technology, but they came at it very much from a patent first, control first kind |
[322.26 --> 327.04] of mindset. And that was something that was already starting to break down at the time. So I was in law |
[327.04 --> 335.66] school 2006, 2009. And it was beginning to be an understanding amongst legal academics that open was a |
[335.66 --> 343.64] thing. I had attended a conference of legal academics where Creative Commons was announced. That was 2001. So there |
[343.64 --> 350.20] were some legal academics who got it, right? And in fact, I pretty only applied to law schools that had at least one |
[350.20 --> 356.12] faculty member who had written something that indicated that they got it in the slightest amount. |
[356.20 --> 359.32] So that meant applications were easier because there wasn't that many schools to apply to. |
[359.82 --> 363.78] And I think that has worked out well, right? It's been a good career. It's been a fun career, |
[363.90 --> 371.28] right? Because I very much, you know, the point was not that, oh, I can like make my piles of money and |
[371.28 --> 376.64] work 3000 hours a year or whatever it was. I have friends who are open lawyers who deserve better |
[376.64 --> 380.70] lawyering than the lawyering that they were getting at the time. And I think that's been |
[380.70 --> 388.28] that sense of, hey, I'm doing this to help open people get better lawyering has served me well as |
[388.28 --> 394.00] a sort of motto and mission and has led to a lot of fun outcomes, right? I mean, because open people |
[394.00 --> 398.06] are doing a lot of fun projects, have been doing a lot of fun projects, and that hasn't changed. |
[398.20 --> 402.80] And I certainly don't think it's going to change anytime soon. But a lot of it does come back to this |
[402.80 --> 408.66] question of like, who owns the thing, right? And I admit, I have enough lawyer brain worms at this |
[408.66 --> 413.36] point that my immediate thought goes to like, okay, well, the contract of the and the one of you |
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