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[970.04 --> 980.14] that an API could be copyrightable, independent of the implementation, but there was a plausible, |
[980.36 --> 987.32] what we in the US call a fair use argument that essentially if you re-implement in a way that's |
[987.32 --> 992.16] particularly transformative, right? Like you're doing something that is really different than what |
[992.16 --> 1000.10] the original authors or copyright owners of the API intended to do with the API, then you have an |
[1000.10 --> 1005.32] argument that it's okay to reuse that API in that way through re-implementation. |
[1006.30 --> 1011.60] Lawyers like to say that fair use is simply the right to get sued. It's ambiguous. It's one of these |
[1011.60 --> 1016.58] things where, again, you can't know ahead of time what the outcome is going to be. And that, |
[1016.58 --> 1022.04] of course, makes it a playground mostly for large companies, unfortunately, right? So I think in |
[1022.04 --> 1026.46] some ways that was not a great outcome. It was a better outcome for open source than what could |
[1026.46 --> 1030.72] have been, than what Oracle wanted to have, but it wasn't an ideal outcome. |
[1030.72 --> 1048.54] Hey friends, this episode is brought to you by my friends and potentially your friends too at |
[1048.54 --> 1053.80] Firehydrant. And I'm here with Robert Ross, founder and CEO of Firehydrant. And Robert, |
[1053.96 --> 1059.32] there are several options out there for incident management, but what is it that makes Firehydrant |
[1059.32 --> 1064.20] different? The reason that we think that Firehydrant is, is onto something is because we're |
[1064.20 --> 1070.28] meeting companies really where they are. We face the same problems that every company in the industry |
[1070.28 --> 1076.26] that is building and releasing software is also facing. So where you want people to be able to sign |
[1076.26 --> 1082.64] up for Firehydrant and immediately be able to kick off an incident using the best practices that we've |
[1082.64 --> 1087.18] built and we've experienced and have gathered through the other amazing customers that use our tool. |
[1087.18 --> 1092.50] It really is a very quick time to value. And we want people to have a long jump from where they |
[1092.50 --> 1099.16] are to where they want to be in incident management. I love it. Thank you, Robert. Small teams up to 10 |
[1099.16 --> 1103.86] people can get started for free with all Firehydrant features included. There's no credit card required |
[1103.86 --> 1110.06] to sign up. They are making it too easy to get started. So check them out at firehydrant.com. Again, |
[1110.06 --> 1112.06] firehydrant.com. |
[1112.06 --> 1114.92] So |
[1114.92 --> 1121.76] do you want to ask? One step back. And when we talk about code ownership, what exactly does it |
[1121.76 --> 1142.28] I want to ask one step back and when we talk about code ownership what exactly does it mean |
[1142.28 --> 1147.82] I own the code whether I am an individual a company or anything does it mean I'm allowed |
[1147.82 --> 1153.58] to make money of it does it mean I can print it and hang it at home does it mean something else |
[1153.58 --> 1160.70] well I'm gonna give you my lawyer answer to that those of you who whose github accounts do things |
[1160.70 --> 1165.10] other than commit to other licenses which is pretty much all I do these days with my github |
[1165.10 --> 1170.48] account will have better notions of code ownership as a cultural practice among programmers right like |
[1170.48 --> 1174.38] who's responsible I do want to talk a little bit about that one but let me put a pin in that come |
[1174.38 --> 1181.98] back to it the basic system since the at least the 60s in the US I'm not sure exactly the timeline |
[1181.98 --> 1189.64] in the EU but I would imagine similar is that well actually let me go back even further copyright is |
[1189.64 --> 1196.88] intended to protect creative works so what do you have to do to get copyright in a thing and I'll |
[1196.88 --> 1201.56] explain what copyright is in a second but let me start with what it what you have to do and what |
[1201.56 --> 1206.34] you have to do is you have to write down something that's creative write down can be broad right it |
[1206.34 --> 1212.56] can be sculpting or but you have to take it out of your head and put it out into the real world in |
[1212.56 --> 1218.38] some way that can be typing it in a computer can be like I said sculpting it into a sculpture sculptures |
[1218.38 --> 1224.22] can get copyright it can be a work of art you know so it can be oil painting or whatever it can be a |
[1224.22 --> 1229.86] vim poster I mean I'm a honestly these days my development environment is word but I used to be an |
[1229.86 --> 1237.22] emacs guy so that is the key thing is you are doing a creative thing and can be mediated by tools and |
[1237.22 --> 1244.38] Chris this gets to your point about the you know AI and where is copyright in there you know it can be |
[1244.38 --> 1250.18] mediated by a typewriter or a paintbrush or I believe that we don't really know for certain yet it can be |
[1250.18 --> 1257.44] mediated by an AI but you are doing some creative something and turning that into a fixed thing all |
[1257.44 --> 1261.30] right so what happens once you've done that actually before I get into what happens once you've done that |
[1261.30 --> 1268.92] is I think there's an important exception that's in the US at least that creative like what does it mean to be |
[1268.92 --> 1274.98] creative is not zero it's pretty close to zero but it's not zero there's an important case called feist |
[1274.98 --> 1281.26] versus rural telephone and the holding of that case is literally telephone books aren't creative and so therefore |
[1281.26 --> 1285.64] they don't get copyright because what's the point of a telephone book the point of a telephone book is to |
[1285.64 --> 1290.60] literally just mechanically go through a town and have phone numbers for everybody so it's not |
[1290.60 --> 1296.94] it's hard work but it's not creative and in the US at least you have to have some kind of creative |
[1296.94 --> 1302.24] something so if you do like a phone list of the hundred most awesome people in New York City |
[1302.24 --> 1309.38] that's creative right you had to select one of the ways which you can be creative under US copyright law |
[1309.38 --> 1315.48] is selection if you pick those hundred people then hey you've done something creative your list of |
[1315.48 --> 1320.94] hundred people is copyrightable but if you're just every single person who lives in Manhattan that's |
[1320.94 --> 1328.78] not creative you don't get protection and that plays into questions of databases and ultimately I |
[1328.78 --> 1332.98] think and we might not have time to get time to get to this today but the question of the models |
[1332.98 --> 1339.00] themselves right because there's both the output of models what's the copyright on that and the |
[1339.00 --> 1343.76] models themselves we don't actually know if they're copyrightable that may be too esoteric might have |
[1343.76 --> 1347.92] to invite me back for another one for that you know but okay so you've you've created this thing |
[1347.92 --> 1352.66] so now what do you do so now you've got copyright what does copyright let you do copyright lets you |
[1352.66 --> 1358.54] control what others can do with it right it lets you decide who gets to use it who gets to share who |
[1358.54 --> 1365.04] gets to redistribute it who gets to modify it within certain limits but it's pretty strong right so the |
[1365.04 --> 1371.10] limits include what's called first sale doctrine which is uh hey I sold it to somebody they can |
[1371.10 --> 1377.08] usually sell it to one other person first sale doctrine made a lot more sense in the era of like |
[1377.08 --> 1382.90] books and like that's what creates used bookstores is for sale doctrine it means that I bought the |
[1382.90 --> 1389.72] copyrighted thing and now I can give it to a used bookstore and they can resell it um in the digital age |
[1389.72 --> 1395.18] for sale doctrine is a little more complicated um but suffice to say like that's one of the |
[1395.18 --> 1402.38] limitations similarly fair use says hey if you're using this for education if you're using this for |
[1402.38 --> 1407.40] non-profit purposes I'm oversimplifying a little bit here the tests around fair use can be a little |
[1407.40 --> 1415.10] complicated critically in our digital age fair use in the U.S. has expanded quite a bit to include |
[1415.10 --> 1421.00] what's called transformative use which is to say hey you're doing something super new super different |
[1421.00 --> 1428.02] courts are often going to allow that in the name of sort of not impeding progress so for example |
[1428.02 --> 1434.80] google book search is in some sense like the biggest copyright violation in all of history right |
[1434.80 --> 1441.04] because it's literally copied systematically millions of books made these digital copies but then |
[1441.04 --> 1447.82] a court said well but actually it's so different it's so great and they put strict controls around |
[1447.82 --> 1454.08] you know you can only get a few pages at a time and authors can opt out if they want after the copying |
[1454.08 --> 1460.80] has been done so like google book search is a good example of what transformation means and potentially |
[1460.80 --> 1466.68] analogous to what copilot is doing right but we don't know I mean the flip side of this right is that |
[1466.68 --> 1472.32] we just had court cases we had a court case a couple years ago about the song blurred lines some of you |
[1472.32 --> 1479.10] might have heard right and courts there has actually said that even just sort of copying the style of |
[1479.10 --> 1486.22] the artist could potentially be a copyright infringement which was a big surprise to a lot of a lot of lawyers |
[1486.22 --> 1492.34] a lot of lawyers still unhappy about that case next week there's going to be or no tomorrow morning |
[1492.34 --> 1498.72] actually maybe there's going to be a case about andy warhol doing and a photograph of prince that |
[1498.72 --> 1504.64] andy warhol transformed into one of his andy warhol canvases and the supreme court like it's a little |
[1504.64 --> 1508.90] weird but I think that case might actually have a lot of impact on artificial intelligence because |
[1508.90 --> 1514.52] we've all done we've all played with stable diffusion or mid journey or open ai or whatever |
[1514.52 --> 1521.84] to create foo in the style of bar right well if bar is still alive and still has a valid copyright |
[1521.84 --> 1527.60] maybe that's a problem we don't really know yet I saw a research paper yesterday that said |
[1527.60 --> 1535.88] if you prompt copilot to do code in the style of forgetting the guy's name petrov I think a top |
[1535.88 --> 1542.74] python programmer that you actually get fewer vulnerabilities in your code if you prompt copilot |
[1542.74 --> 1550.50] with the name of a top maintainer and flip side the the paper's author was honest enough to note that |
[1550.50 --> 1555.40] they prompted with their own name and the number of vulnerabilities went up which I thought was |
[1555.40 --> 1561.82] nice and humble of them so style is an issue that's gonna that could potentially come up in code as well |
[1561.82 --> 1566.92] that was a very long-winded answer to your question Natalie I apologize no that was interesting so you |
[1566.92 --> 1573.48] said that for code ownership basically means who is allowed to sell and profit of that who is allowed to |
[1573.48 --> 1585.92] give it their own personal interpretation yeah it's also who's who's there to answer in case of a problem right I wrote a piece of code that made my work lose a lot of money |
[1585.92 --> 1600.48] ownership on me yeah I mean so that's where it gets complicated and we have really good answers for that in the case of things like if you manufactured a car wheel and the car |
[1600.48 --> 1612.92] wheel explodes because you used bad materials in that case in the car wheel then we have some well-developed laws and intuitions around like okay well we sue the car wheel manufacturer |
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