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**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, it makes sense. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Do you do videos? Do you find ways to not repeat yourself in that way? So you can say "Here's me telling you how to do these things, and sit down with you." Maybe there's a video you could do, or documentation... That seems to be the easy -- you know, "Hey, why don't you just do documentation?" But ... |
**Eddie Zaneski:** It's definitely something we're working through with the project. We have tons of developer documentation, probably too much, that people don't read. It's overwhelming when you first come in. Getting your development environment set up - it's so many moving pieces. And container runtime really only w... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** How dare them?! |
**Eddie Zaneski:** Right?! |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Linux. Linux for life! |
**Eddie Zaneski:** But it's something we're definitely trying to work towards. We want to make as much onboarding materials as we can. We've had mentorship cohorts, but at the end of the day it's very complex as a codebase. And it's just old, and there's so much -- we don't say tribal knowledge anymore. What do we say?... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Wisdom... Experience... |
**Eddie Zaneski:** Decisions that were made a while ago, right? And people come in headstrong, really wanting to help out and contribute, and it's like "Well, we tried that, and here's why it didn't work six different times." And that is the hard part, is the context and the history; how do we communicate that to new p... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[43:54\] Right. What's the process to become a contributor long-term? You put time into this person, you watch their codebase, and they gave one contribution and never came back. What is the process to have a long-term contribution plan? Is there a term of service? We hear from OSPOs like "Hey, com... |
**Eddie Zaneski:** Do you know Mike McQuaid? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yup. |
**Eddie Zaneski:** So Mike McQuaid - he's the lead maintainer for Homebrew, and he's got a blog post that he wrote back in 2018 that's kind of resonated with me. It's "Don't mentor first-time contributors. Don't mentor second-time contributors. Mentor third-time contributors." And it's the idea that - like I explained,... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** What brings somebody back three times to the Kubernetes CLI, for example? What does is it that brings them back? Is it because they have a vested interest, they're super-curious, they have funded time interest, their employer pays for it? What are the attributes of a person who comes back again and ... |
**Eddie Zaneski:** I don't have a good answer. I really don't. It's people who want to get involved and contribute back, and some people might be encouraged to get involved in open source... Some people want to learn Go, they want to learn Kubernetes in general... Yeah, we see people come for all different reasons. Som... |
**Jerod Santo:** So what do you think of this word, "rewrite"? Do you like that word? |
**Eddie Zaneski:** It's a word... \[laughter\] It's part of the English language... |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay... Have you ever considered it with the CLI? Not throw one out and start fresh, but start fresh alongside the one that exists. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Oh yes, the parallel... |
**Jerod Santo:** The old big rewrite. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** The parallel rewrite. |
**Jerod Santo:** Because you've got a lot of baggage, according into you. And that's perhaps scary, but maybe in an open source world not so bad way of like - instead of just like trying to bring this one up to snuff, you just maintain it status quo and rewrite the sucker. |
**Eddie Zaneski:** Yeah, so we have an initiative that we've been rewriting commands to like our new pattern that's more concise, and we've got like the options and the flags dangling off the command struct, and... You know, in the Go world that makes a lot of sense. |
From scratch is an interesting one... The Kubernetes project as a whole - we are terrified of breaking users. So the example I like to give is I've been trying to get delete confirmation into this CLI for the longest time. When you delete a namespace in Kubernetes, you delete everything that was in that namespace. When... |
**Jerod Santo:** Isn't that what semver is for? Major release. |
**Eddie Zaneski:** We don't want to do a major release for the project. As far as we know, we can barely get people to upgrade the minor versions. |
**Jerod Santo:** But majors are easier, because people get excited. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's right. Is there something to learn from the way Linux is distributed? Like, LTS'es, and versions, and... I mean, every time I do a new Ubuntu installation, it's 18, it's 22, it's 20... And I'm cool with that. There's an LTS, there's a spectrum of risk... It's clear... Is that a possibility wi... |
**Eddie Zaneski:** \[48:14\] It's definitely the first thing you reach for, right? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Eddie Zaneski:** There are two answers there. So the first one - LTS is actually something we just started talking about again. So we were on KubeCon in Amsterdam two weeks ago, and Jeremy Rickard from Microsoft revived the talk around the working group for LTS. So we did it a couple years ago, we determined that it ... |
And then the other thing, kubectl is versioned as part of the Kubernetes project itself. So I can't release a separate version of kubectl. |
**Jerod Santo:** That makes it harder. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It does. |
**Eddie Zaneski:** Yeah. So we do have a proposal out that probably needs to get revived, but that was something we wanted to do. But then you get the problem of the compatibility and skew matrix. What version of the client is supported by what version of the API server? |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Useful software gets upgraded. Here's one thing we learned from GitHub, and a lot of other things out there, where it's like, permission to mess up, permission to do something different. If you can release a different version of it in parallel, that has what everybody wants, and it fixes all the pro... |
**Eddie Zaneski:** Right. The rewriting thing would probably get like -- it probably would be impossible to get through. Any significant changes to the project go through what we call the KEP process, the Kubernetes Enhancement Proposals. And I could just see like opening a KEP for "Rewrite kubectl", and just like "No.... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** What if you already did it? |
**Eddie Zaneski:** What if we already did it? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's right. |
**Jerod Santo:** A first-time contributor shows up, "I rewrote this..." |
**Eddie Zaneski:** There's nothing stopping us or anyone from doing that. The reality is we are changing the tires on a bus that's moving 1,000 miles an hour down the highway, right? |
**Jerod Santo:** Maybe it actually turns into more like a yarn and npm kind of situation, where it's not you guys that rewrite it, but it's somebody else that comes alongside and says, "Well, we can write our own CLI against the Kubernetes API, and here's seven ways it's better. And hey, who wants to use this?" And I d... |
**Eddie Zaneski:** That's a conference now. |
**Jerod Santo:** Oh, it is? |
**Eddie Zaneski:** Yeah. |
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