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2023-Changelog-Interviews-Transcripts

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[2638.54 --> 2643.12] Like you put this time into this person, you walk to their code base, and they gave one
[2643.12 --> 2644.46] contribution and never came back.
[2644.54 --> 2647.74] What is the process to have a long term contribution plan?
[2647.86 --> 2649.50] Is there a term of service?
[2649.60 --> 2652.38] We hear from OSPO's like, hey, come for a term of service.
[2652.38 --> 2655.14] That means maybe a year, maybe six months, maybe it's three years.
[2655.74 --> 2657.44] You know, and then there's repetition in that.
[2657.44 --> 2659.80] But how do you all plan that out?
[2660.02 --> 2662.06] Is there a form and function around that?
[2662.56 --> 2663.60] Do you know Mike McQuaid?
[2663.88 --> 2664.04] Yeah.
[2664.32 --> 2664.48] Yeah.
[2664.58 --> 2667.56] So Mike McQuaid, he's the lead maintainer for Homebrew.
[2667.72 --> 2672.24] And he's got a blog post that he wrote back in 2018 that's kind of resonated with me.
[2672.66 --> 2675.40] It's don't mentor first time contributors.
[2676.06 --> 2677.44] Don't mentor second time contributors.
[2677.64 --> 2678.72] Mentor third time contributors.
[2679.46 --> 2684.82] And it's the idea that, like I explained, you get burnt out if you keep spending time on
[2684.82 --> 2686.08] people who just don't come back.
[2686.08 --> 2690.02] But if they've made two contributions and they've come back for the third, it's like,
[2690.06 --> 2690.46] all right, cool.
[2690.64 --> 2691.38] Like you're in it.
[2691.44 --> 2693.00] You've gone through the hard part, the weeds.
[2693.28 --> 2695.44] Like we can grow you into a maintainer, right?
[2695.46 --> 2698.94] Because that's the goal at the end of the day is to grow people into maintainers.
[2699.10 --> 2700.44] We want as many as we can get.
[2700.72 --> 2700.84] Yeah.
[2701.16 --> 2704.92] What brings somebody back three times to the Kubernetes CLI, for example?
[2705.12 --> 2706.18] Like what is it that brings them back?
[2706.24 --> 2707.76] Is it because they have a vested interest?
[2708.12 --> 2708.82] They're super curious.
[2709.00 --> 2711.12] They have funded time interest.
[2711.22 --> 2712.26] Their employer pays for it.
[2712.26 --> 2715.60] Like what are the attributes of a person who comes back again and again?
[2716.06 --> 2716.94] I don't have a good answer.
[2717.50 --> 2718.26] I really don't.
[2718.40 --> 2721.56] It's people who want to get involved and contribute back.
[2721.72 --> 2724.44] And some people might be encouraged to get involved in open source.
[2724.52 --> 2725.60] Some people want to learn Go.
[2725.78 --> 2727.44] They want to learn Kubernetes in general.
[2727.44 --> 2732.28] Yeah, it's we see people come for all different reasons.
[2732.40 --> 2737.36] Some people really just want to build their resume and just want to build up their GitHub stats and show them that they've contributed.
[2737.72 --> 2743.02] And so, yeah, it is hard to filter through and apply the right time to the right folks.
[2744.02 --> 2746.40] So what do you think of this word?
[2747.00 --> 2747.44] Rewrite.
[2747.90 --> 2748.64] Do you like that word?
[2750.68 --> 2751.58] It's a word.
[2752.98 --> 2754.50] It's part of the English language.
[2754.50 --> 2754.90] Okay.
[2755.42 --> 2758.22] Have you ever considered it with the CLI?
[2759.44 --> 2763.56] Like not throw one out and start new fresh, but start fresh alongside the one that exists.
[2763.58 --> 2764.06] Oh, yes.
[2764.24 --> 2764.68] The parallel.
[2764.98 --> 2765.92] The old big rewrite.
[2766.08 --> 2766.82] The parallel rewrite.
[2767.00 --> 2769.26] Because, I mean, you got a lot of baggage, according to you.
[2770.00 --> 2781.28] And that's perhaps scary, but maybe in an open source world, not so bad way of like, instead of just like trying to bring this one up to snuff, you just maintain it status quo and rewrite the sucker.
[2781.28 --> 2781.72] Yeah.
[2782.12 --> 2786.84] So we have an initiative that we've been rewriting commands to like our new pattern that's more concise.
[2787.12 --> 2791.42] And, you know, we got like the options and the flags dangling off the command struct.
[2791.82 --> 2794.20] And, you know, in a go world, it makes a lot of sense.
[2794.90 --> 2796.98] From scratch is an interesting one.
[2797.84 --> 2801.62] The Kubernetes project in a whole, we are terrified of breaking users.
[2801.62 --> 2808.38] So the example that I like to give is I've been trying to get delete confirmation into the CLI for the longest time.
[2808.70 --> 2812.78] When you delete a namespace in Kubernetes, you delete everything that was in that namespace.
[2812.88 --> 2818.02] When you accidentally delete all namespaces in your cluster, you've wiped everything out and you're going to have a bad time.
[2818.02 --> 2825.22] And I could show you like tons of GitHub issues where people say, why was it so easy for me to make this mistake?
[2825.56 --> 2825.60] Right.
[2825.82 --> 2829.06] Why didn't it ask me, are you sure you want to blow everything away?
[2829.06 --> 2835.32] And the reality is that we can't just start asking, are you sure you want to delete everything?
[2835.78 --> 2838.54] Because your CI pipeline would break, right?
[2838.56 --> 2839.72] We'd break everyone's build.
[2839.82 --> 2844.42] People are updating their CI runs and they don't know what version of the client they're using.
[2844.52 --> 2846.00] They don't really read the release notes.
[2846.32 --> 2847.78] And so that's just an example.
[2847.92 --> 2850.40] Like I've been trying to get delete confirmation in since I started.
[2851.18 --> 2852.70] Isn't that what Semver is for?
[2852.98 --> 2854.12] Major release.
[2854.32 --> 2856.48] We don't want to do a major release for the project.
[2856.48 --> 2860.92] As far as we know, right, we can barely get people to upgrade the minor versions.
[2861.82 --> 2864.62] But majors are easier because people get excited.
[2864.86 --> 2865.40] That's right.
[2866.38 --> 2869.16] Is there something to learn from the way Linux is distributed?
[2869.60 --> 2871.62] Like LTSs and versions?
[2872.14 --> 2878.90] I mean, every time I do a new Ubuntu installation, it's 18, it's 22, it's 20.
[2879.40 --> 2880.24] And I'm cool with that.
[2880.36 --> 2881.22] There's an LTS.
[2881.82 --> 2883.72] There's a spectrum of risk.
[2884.10 --> 2884.78] It's clear.
[2884.78 --> 2887.42] Is that a possibility with a CLI?
[2887.48 --> 2888.60] This is a crucial piece.
[2888.96 --> 2892.14] It's like the centerpiece for Kubernetes for the most part, right?
[2892.22 --> 2894.68] It's the main consumer of the API.
[2895.06 --> 2896.94] It's definitely the first thing you reach for, right?
[2896.98 --> 2897.28] Right, yeah.
[2897.68 --> 2899.56] There are two answers there.
[2899.68 --> 2903.34] So the first one, LTS is actually something we just started talking about again.
[2903.50 --> 2906.02] So we were on KubeCon in Amsterdam like two weeks ago.
[2906.46 --> 2910.92] And Jeremy Rickard from Microsoft revived the talk around the working group for LTS.
[2910.92 --> 2911.12] Yes.