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[4372.66 --> 4374.18] Why was this donation make sense? |
[4374.28 --> 4377.10] And this whole route makes sense for your, I guess, your journey? |
[4377.56 --> 4377.72] Yeah. |
[4377.78 --> 4381.16] So we donated Dapper to CNCF while we were at Microsoft. |
[4381.48 --> 4385.00] And the reason, the main reason why we did that was to really gain new contributors. |
[4385.26 --> 4386.42] Dapper had a lot of contributors. |
[4386.42 --> 4389.56] But being vendor neutral is something that's really important. |
[4389.56 --> 4403.90] You know, if it's a project that spins out of Microsoft or AWS or Google and it remains under their proprietary, you know, licenses or control, then users of other clouds might not feel so much inclined to take a bet on it. |
[4403.90 --> 4407.92] Because they will go like, oh, it's a Microsoft thing or it's an AWS thing or it's a Google thing. |
[4407.92 --> 4419.32] But when you donate to CNCF, you get this vendor neutrality and you gain these new audiences of contributors who are coming in from, you know, every walk of life, every cloud platform or technology that contribute to your project. |
[4419.32 --> 4428.74] So your end users grow, your contributor audience grows, and people see that this is really something that can adhere to many users from many cloud platforms. |
[4428.94 --> 4431.04] We didn't want it just to become an Azure thing. |
[4431.50 --> 4433.92] So primary benefit is vendor neutral. |
[4434.08 --> 4434.36] Yes. |
[4434.58 --> 4438.38] And new contributors because you're seen as a level playing field, no bias. |
[4438.64 --> 4439.02] Correct. |
[4439.24 --> 4439.40] Right. |
[4439.46 --> 4440.72] No corporate overlord necessarily. |
[4440.90 --> 4441.06] Yeah. |
[4441.50 --> 4441.74] Okay. |
[4442.54 --> 4444.46] How has that benefited Diagrate? |
[4444.46 --> 4451.62] How has that benefited your company in terms of like commercializing this open source, your journey to get venture-backed funding? |
[4451.92 --> 4457.72] Like how has that helped in all ways the business angle of, has it been a lot easier, I suppose, to do this route? |
[4458.20 --> 4463.48] So, you know, there's a lot of commercial entities that back open source projects that are not CNCF projects. |
[4464.30 --> 4465.74] You know, I can name many. |
[4465.74 --> 4478.26] But I think the one major benefit of being in the CNCF was looking at the contributor growth since we joined because Dapr picked up a lot of new contributors ever since we joined. |
[4478.36 --> 4484.22] And when you pick up new contributors, eventually it translates into end users, which translates into new business. |
[4484.22 --> 4488.04] So, yes, that makes commercializing it easier. |
[4488.30 --> 4498.04] You have to spend less time working on the open source project than you would have if it wasn't in CNCF because you get this awesome power of the open source contributions helping your project. |
[4498.20 --> 4501.92] Where otherwise we would need to like fund a really, really large team to work on open source. |
[4502.16 --> 4502.28] Right. |
[4502.90 --> 4504.72] What's the license of Dapr itself? |
[4505.00 --> 4506.96] And is there anybody else who can do a Diagrate? |
[4507.22 --> 4508.66] Could like Jared and I get like, you know what? |
[4508.70 --> 4510.54] Hey, we're leaving here today and we're going to compete. |
[4510.80 --> 4511.90] Yes, you can definitely do that. |
[4512.08 --> 4513.06] Dapr is Apache 2. |
[4513.06 --> 4515.26] That's mandated by the CNCF. |
[4515.62 --> 4520.06] So all CNCF projects are under an Apache 2 license, which is very flexible in how you commercialize it. |
[4520.30 --> 4521.24] You can do whatever you want. |
[4521.30 --> 4522.80] You can start your own service around it. |
[4523.34 --> 4525.54] Dapr and any other project in the CNCF. |
[4525.80 --> 4531.28] So you're competing on, I guess, your ability to do the managed service the best, right? |
[4531.28 --> 4531.48] Yes. |
[4531.48 --> 4536.88] So if somebody comes out and competes with you, they compete on the same, they have the same Dapr core or whatever it might be. |
[4537.04 --> 4538.98] They can spin up a version of that. |
[4539.06 --> 4542.84] No, it wouldn't be cool necessarily to do that, but they could. |
[4542.84 --> 4543.50] It's possible. |
[4543.78 --> 4544.40] Yeah, definitely. |
[4544.76 --> 4546.22] And, you know, we welcome competition. |
[4546.68 --> 4551.02] Look what's happening with Argo, the CNCF project that picked up on a lot of traction. |
[4551.52 --> 4554.72] CICD side, there's multiple companies trying to commercialize it today. |
[4555.46 --> 4556.80] Microsoft's commercializing Dapr. |
[4556.80 --> 4559.88] I actually built Dapr into a managed service. |
[4560.02 --> 4566.10] So I kind of, in a way, created some of my own future competition, which is pretty cool. |
[4566.28 --> 4569.92] You know, the Microsoft people are great and competition is good because it makes everyone better. |
[4569.92 --> 4585.80] But, yes, we believe that in Diagrid, because Mark and I, my co-founder, created the Dapr project and we're core maintainers of the project and we're also on the Dapr steering committee alongside Alibaba, Intel, and Microsoft, then we have a very good, you know, overview into the project. |
[4585.80 --> 4589.44] And we have a very good understanding of the technical aspects of it. |
[4590.06 --> 4592.00] But you didn't name yourself Dapr Inc. |
[4592.60 --> 4594.42] Yes, yes, we didn't. |
[4594.54 --> 4595.20] For two reasons. |
[4595.34 --> 4597.46] One is, well, a legal requirement. |
[4597.72 --> 4600.16] We can't because Dapr is under trademarks of CNCF. |
[4600.16 --> 4602.54] So that limits you. |
[4602.84 --> 4611.30] But even if it didn't have that limitation, we still wouldn't do that because we don't want to tie the fate of our company to, you know, one single project. |
[4611.70 --> 4613.78] At some point, Diagrid will eclipse Dapr. |
[4614.14 --> 4617.70] Dapr is an amazing framework helping a lot of developers out there today. |
[4617.98 --> 4621.34] And we will be invested in it for as long as the company lives. |
[4621.48 --> 4623.60] That's a promise to anyone out there listening to this. |
[4623.60 --> 4629.82] But we will also want to give, you know, our own take about distributed systems that might not necessarily have something to do with Dapr. |
[4630.10 --> 4634.58] Our core at Diagrid is to make application developers more successful, whatever they're doing. |
[4634.66 --> 4636.60] And Dapr is one way of doing it, and there may be others. |
[4636.60 --> 4645.12] And so, yeah, we name yourself Diagrid because that's an architectural term that helps buildings be built, you know, faster and more reliably. |
[4645.26 --> 4646.06] And that's what we want to do. |
[4646.12 --> 4650.28] We really want to enable architectural patterns for application developers to be better. |
[4650.28 --> 4655.82] Is there a parallel to Dapr or a comparable that people may know about? |
[4656.44 --> 4661.56] Yeah, so Dapr is really polyglot in that you can talk to it from any language. |
[4661.80 --> 4668.46] I think if you look at, like, individual programming languages, you'll find equivalents like Spring, for example, for Java. |
[4668.64 --> 4670.14] Or Spring Cloud, right? |
[4670.22 --> 4673.54] So it's like a Java framework that gives you all of these developer primitives. |
[4673.80 --> 4675.10] It's like Dapr for Java. |
[4675.38 --> 4675.60] Right. |
[4675.60 --> 4677.04] And you have Micro for Go. |
[4677.04 --> 4681.00] So, yeah, those are the immediate two that I can think of. |
[4681.56 --> 4682.20] That helps. |
[4682.64 --> 4690.50] So are there drawbacks to the polyglot style versus, I mean, I'm sure there are, but HTTP works pretty well. |
[4690.88 --> 4691.70] Yeah, it does. |
[4691.70 --> 4697.42] I mean, like, if you're writing a very extremely low-latency application, Dapr might not be for you. |
[4698.22 --> 4698.60] Right? |
[4698.64 --> 4700.96] Because you still have an extra network call. |
[4700.98 --> 4701.16] Right. |
[4701.16 --> 4709.58] And so, like, if you're writing a trading application and you need, like, I don't know, microseconds of latency, Dapr might not be a fit for you. |
[4709.88 --> 4715.58] But we do believe that, you know, in that terms, performance is good for, you know, 90% plus of use cases. |
[4715.58 --> 4726.38] Another reason why Dapr might not be for you is if you need really, really specific features from, like, Kafka, AWS, DynamoDB, because Dapr is an abstraction layer on top of this infrastructure. |
[4726.78 --> 4731.80] In many cases, it adds features that you don't find on top of these cloud services, which is really helpful. |
[4732.18 --> 4735.24] But in some cases, you won't find the feature that you're looking for. |
[4735.44 --> 4735.52] Yeah. |
[4735.52 --> 4738.32] So if you need something really esoteric, Dapr might not be the best fit. |
[4738.62 --> 4739.04] Makes sense. |
[4739.12 --> 4741.98] Lowest common denominator across what you're trying to do. |
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