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[3734.34 --> 3735.78] And then you have to write state. |
[3735.86 --> 3737.26] You have to manage state at scale. |
[3737.56 --> 3741.86] You might be writing to Radis or DynamoDB or Cassandra or Google Firebase. |
[3741.86 --> 3749.88] But if you have multiple services writing the same data all at once, you are probably going to want something like first rate wins or last rate wins. |
[3750.36 --> 3754.50] And you're going to have to do PubSub and leader election and config management and secret management. |
[3754.84 --> 3762.06] And all of these infrastructure things really add up when all you want to do is focus on your business logic so that you can ship your feature out and get your next promotion. |
[3762.06 --> 3762.32] Right? |
[3762.68 --> 3762.80] Right. |
[3762.80 --> 3774.62] And so Dapper really gives developers these APIs that give them all these PubSub event, async eventing paradigms and service-to-service invocation and stateful management paradigms. |
[3774.74 --> 3777.02] They can focus on what matters most to them. |
[3777.40 --> 3779.58] So do you describe it as a framework or a toolkit? |
[3780.12 --> 3782.96] Yeah, I think a framework is a good definition of it. |
[3783.06 --> 3785.78] It's an API that you call, so it doesn't compile into your code. |
[3786.12 --> 3787.30] It's a sidecar architecture. |
[3787.50 --> 3789.62] So there's a process running next to your application. |
[3789.62 --> 3800.98] You talk to it via HTTP or gRPC, which makes Dapper really inclusive because if you're a developer coming from Python, Java, C Sharp, Rust, whatever language, as long as it can talk HTTP, it can talk to Dapper. |
[3801.30 --> 3801.54] Okay. |
[3802.36 --> 3806.04] And so there's a bunch of client libraries probably for different languages that talk to Dapper? |
[3806.28 --> 3807.16] Yeah, there are. |
[3807.34 --> 3812.40] They make the development experience nicer, but if you want to, you can just drop down to HTTP and gRPC directly. |
[3812.50 --> 3812.70] Sure. |
[3813.24 --> 3813.40] Yeah. |
[3813.40 --> 3821.08] All right, so I have my business logic, and then it's calling over to Dapper and telling Dapper to store some data, give me some data. |
[3821.88 --> 3825.36] Yeah, handle state that's for you, do PubSub between services. |
[3825.36 --> 3825.56] Yeah. |
[3825.56 --> 3834.28] But then the nice stuff for ops people is that no matter where you're running, you can basically tell Dapper to work with the infrastructure of choice for your team. |
[3834.62 --> 3838.76] So Dapper doesn't replace a state store or a PubSub or a configuration store. |
[3838.92 --> 3847.74] It actually has this component model concept where you can plug it in to work with whatever database or PubSub or secret store your cloud's running. |
[3847.74 --> 3857.30] So we have 100 of these community-contributed components that we maintain, and as a DevOps person, you can say, hey, if I'm running Google Cloud, I'll have Dapper work against Firebase. |
[3857.60 --> 3861.32] We're running on-prem, it'll work against Redis, and as a developer, you get really consistent API. |
[3861.86 --> 3867.66] So in a multi-cloud environment, you write your code once, and you can basically configure Dapper to work against whatever infrastructure you're running. |
[3868.10 --> 3868.70] That sounds cool. |
[3868.78 --> 3870.68] Is there like a Dapper stack? |
[3870.68 --> 3876.28] Is there like a default set of these are the plugs that we recommend you plug in, but you can plug in whatever you want? |
[3876.78 --> 3878.46] Yeah, you can basically plug in whatever you want. |
[3878.58 --> 3879.86] So that's a really good question. |
[3879.98 --> 3881.78] We have the concept of a pluggable component. |
[3882.26 --> 3893.38] So, for example, if you are using Dapper to talk to some proprietary system that you can't contribute upstream back to Dapper, we have a way for you to write that plug in and run it on your own. |
[3893.78 --> 3895.66] But we also have maturity level. |
[3895.66 --> 3901.00] So we have alpha components, beta components, stable components, and we recommend people use stable components for production. |
[3901.42 --> 3903.06] Other than that, you're free to do whatever you want. |
[3904.02 --> 3908.78] Dapper will make sure that all the best practices are really encapsulated in the API calls for you. |
[3909.52 --> 3909.64] Huh. |
[3910.70 --> 3916.98] So how did Dapper escape Microsoft, or how did you escape Microsoft with Dapper, or... |
[3916.98 --> 3918.02] It wasn't an escape at all. |
[3918.18 --> 3918.96] Or maybe you just left. |
[3919.38 --> 3923.16] Yeah, so Dapper was open-sourced first in October 2019. |
[3923.40 --> 3924.22] It really picked up. |
[3924.22 --> 3933.98] So we have a lot of end-user adopters today, from IBM to Microsoft to Alibaba Cloud, NVIDIA, NASA is running Dapper in outer space, as we speak, by the way. |
[3935.04 --> 3935.46] That's cool. |
[3935.58 --> 3936.78] I think that's the coolest use case of Dapper. |
[3936.78 --> 3937.44] That's good, right? |
[3937.72 --> 3937.96] Yeah. |
[3938.08 --> 3939.68] It's like the ultimate edge deployment, right? |
[3939.84 --> 3940.04] Yeah. |
[3940.46 --> 3941.20] Which is nice. |
[3941.64 --> 3942.94] And so it really picked up. |
[3943.04 --> 3944.58] We saw a lot of community contribution. |
[3944.58 --> 3953.04] Then we decided that we're going to give it to our foundation because we want to really make sure that it grows and that we bring other vendors in, other companies. |
[3953.04 --> 3955.76] So it arrived in the CNCF. |
[3956.40 --> 3959.92] We were, I think, the first or second project to make it straight into incubating. |
[3960.12 --> 3965.72] We skipped the sandbox phase because we already had a lot of end-user adoption, a lot of contributions coming in. |
[3965.72 --> 3969.42] And, yeah, since then, the project really took off. |
[3969.54 --> 3974.28] And at some point, VCs basically came up to me and were like, hey, you know what? |
[3974.44 --> 3975.68] How about you spin off Microsoft? |
[3975.92 --> 3977.60] We think there's going to be a good business here. |
[3977.60 --> 3979.96] And I basically told all of them no. |
[3980.18 --> 3982.68] So I was focused on my career at Microsoft. |
[3982.88 --> 3992.20] And Mark, my co-founder of Dapper and Dygrid also, which is our company, was also busy having Dapper really take off the ground. |
[3992.20 --> 3996.12] And a year later, we were having a hallway conversation. |
[3996.28 --> 4000.00] We were like, look, we think Dapper can have a much broader future. |
[4000.58 --> 4003.98] And we have our own vision for distributed systems and where this can go. |
[4004.34 --> 4006.30] And this needs to happen outside of Microsoft. |
[4006.94 --> 4009.42] So, yeah, we basically started Dygrid. |
[4009.62 --> 4012.80] We left Microsoft in very good terms. |
[4012.90 --> 4015.02] We're still very friendly with all the people there. |
[4015.42 --> 4017.60] Microsoft's doing an awesome job on the project. |
[4017.60 --> 4020.82] They're contributing to the project along with Alibaba and Intel. |
[4021.20 --> 4026.14] They're the main contributors who are on the Dapper steering committee alongside us, Dygrid. |
[4026.66 --> 4028.90] And, yeah, it's been a fun ride. |
[4029.90 --> 4037.30] It's pretty cool to be able to start a project inside of Microsoft, work on it at Microsoft, for Microsoft, donate it. |
[4037.40 --> 4038.02] Or I don't even donate. |
[4038.12 --> 4038.68] It's not the right word. |
[4038.86 --> 4041.64] When you CNCF something, is it donated? |
[4041.80 --> 4042.46] Yeah, it is donated. |
[4042.46 --> 4043.10] It is the right word. |
[4043.30 --> 4043.66] It's the right word. |
[4043.82 --> 4043.92] Yeah. |
[4043.92 --> 4046.00] Okay, donate it to the CNCF. |
[4046.00 --> 4054.74] And then start a company around it that builds on it or around it or for it after that as a startup. |
[4054.94 --> 4055.78] It's a managed version of it. |
[4055.90 --> 4056.08] Yeah. |
[4056.64 --> 4056.84] Yeah. |
[4057.26 --> 4058.48] That's a beautiful world, man. |
[4058.62 --> 4059.22] That sounds, yeah. |
[4059.34 --> 4060.88] You were kind of saying no for a while. |
[4061.38 --> 4062.42] Yeah, for a long while. |
[4062.46 --> 4067.24] I was, like, so focused in building Dapper into Azure services, like Microsoft Managed Services. |
[4067.88 --> 4070.04] They have a service that integrates Dapper. |
[4070.18 --> 4071.44] So, that's what I was working on. |
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