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**Jonathan Carter:** Yeah, the core of Android is open source, but all these apps that you need to actually make it useful, they're all closed source from Google. So as a whole, it's definitely not open source. But you could take Android and install it on some custom device, but you can't get Google Maps or all the Goo... |
So yeah, I'm hoping that Debian on phones work out. There's lots of different reasons why that could be fun. At the moment, this is just a toy, basically, the one I have. I can't really use it for actual serious day to day stuff, also because the specific phone that I have us more of a development phone. Its battery li... |
There are new ones that are being made. There's the -- it's called the Pine Project, they have what they call the Pine Phone, and that one is a lot better. It's thinner, and it lasts a lot longer, it's faster... So there's a few different projects working on making phones that can run Debian, and it's interesting to se... |
But yeah, the universality (is that a word?) of Debian is quite a big aspect of it. And also that it's -- we talked about the licensing and freeness of it a bit earlier as well. The fact that you can access it without needing to have an account anyway, or fill in your email address is really powerful. Also, you can tak... |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, it's almost too good to be true, you know, Jonathan? |
**Jonathan Carter:** It's almost too good to be true, yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** And the old saying is if something feels too good to be true, it probably isn't true. And so we tend to stop and say, "No, seriously, can you sign this?" Because that's almost unheard of. I almost can't believe it to be the case. |
**Jonathan Carter:** \[49:53\] I've almost wondered if I should make some web form where you can enter your company's name, and then it just auto-generates a PDF that says "This company is authorized to use Debian \[unintelligible 00:50:01.22\] |
**Jerod Santo:** And sign it Forky, you know? Like, have Forky sign it, or somebody. |
**Jonathan Carter:** That's a good idea. That's a good idea. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. Because it could be cheeky and fun, rather than legitimately serious. Let's laser in on that, because one of the sponsors of DebConf for this year, 2023, is Proxmox. And I believe one of the products you're talking about, at least I assume, that builds on top of Debian is Proxmox. You can inst... |
Now, Proxmox is also open source, so it's an open source product, but the way they commercialize it is through support. So you can go and buy a support license through Proxmox for your hypervisor, and move along with your life. But I'm curious, is that one of the examples you're talking about, or is it is there somebod... |
**Jonathan Carter:** That's one of the examples, but there's thousands of companies. It's many. I don't know of all of them even, and I've had many of them email me, but once I tell them "You can really use Debian, it's fine", sometimes I sign for them, and I forget about them shortly after. And there's so many of them... |
It's amazing how big Linux has grown in the last 20 years or so. When I first started using Linux and showed it to my friends no one knew what it was or that it even existed. Now it's almost a household name. Even if people don't know exactly what it is, they've heard the name. But if you look at how widely it's used..... |
There's so many Linux computers everywhere that they outnumber all the other devices multiple times... And it's just exploded so much. Even the supercomputers up until I think four years ago, it was 498 out of the 500 top supercomputers ran Linux, and then they switched the last two over recently as well. So now it's a... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I guess I'm not that surprised by that, honestly, because - I mean, from my perspective, or at least many people's perspective, Windows is not necessarily designed to be a multi-machine or a headless machine operating system. It's meant to be a personal operating system. macOS 10, or macOS has tradi... |
**Jonathan Carter:** It's funny, because Microsoft used to absolutely hate us. Steve Ballmer even called Linux a cancer at one point. And Apple just ignored us, pretended we don't exist. And in recent years, when Microsoft wanted the users to upgrade to Windows 10 -- almost a Debian 10... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[laughs\] |
**Jonathan Carter:** \[54:06\] They basically had to give Windows 10 away for free in order to get people onto it, so that people don't get stuck on these old versions of Windows. And this meant that Windows wasn't this cash cow it usually is. But they did Linux on Azure, and Azure completely skyrocketed. So they made ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. You mentioned the M1 machines, and this new Apple silicon direction they've taken... And the one thing -- I don't know if they'll ever do it, but the one thing I want them to do is just natively support Linux. I don't care about Windows on a Mac, I really don't. I would love to just like insta... |
Now, I don't always want to choose macOS. I do want to keep choosing Mac hardware, though, because I think they have, in most cases, a leg up. But then at the same time I really enjoy building out my own systems, too. So I like to buy Intel NUCs, and tinker, and have fun, and like swap out my RAM, and choose my own SSD... |
**Jonathan Carter:** Yup. There's lots of work going into that, and there's this one guy doing an amazing amount of work reverse-engineering all that Apple stuff to make Linux work on them. And I was a bit concerned at one point that Apple would try to block this, add something to the new M1 designs that it would not b... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Is that right? |
**Jonathan Carter:** Yeah, that's a fantastic -- plus one point for Apple in this case. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, I didn't hear that news. |
**Jonathan Carter:** Yeah, so Linux is just going to get better on the M1 and above hardware. That is some good news, at least for people who like the Apple hardware. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So they're not blocking it... But are they supporting it? You know what I mean? So it's one thing to not block an alternate operating system from being installed, but it's another thing to support it. I would love it if Tim Cook, and supportive of just an open, free world, support Linux on that hard... |
**Jerod Santo:** Don't hold your breath... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Jerod's like "Hm..." What are you saying, Jerod? Go ahead. |
**Jerod Santo:** I just said "Don't hold your breath." I just said "Don't hold your breath." |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I can tell you my dreams, can't I? |
**Jerod Santo:** I know, I've got no problem with your dream. I'm just here thinking like it's a pipe dream. Yeah, there you go. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I'm holding my breath... No, no, I'm not holding my breath. It is a pipe dream. But you know, what got me into this -- this, Jerod, because I started to tinker with Linux on old Mac hardware that was Intel. And so when I got to the T2 chip supported - it was still Intel, but it had that T2 chip - we... |
\[58:05\] And so as a Mac user, I've got this old hardware, I've got like three old Intel Mac Minis sitting over there that don't really have a life necessarily. And I can install Linux on those. I did choose Ubuntu, so forgive me; it is an ancestor, I guess a derivative, a sibling... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, it's to some degree family. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It's based on. But there's some \[unintelligible 00:58:27.20\] |
**Jerod Santo:** Oh, there you go... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Exactly. Like, that's the super-old school one. I said - what, 2003? |
**Jerod Santo:** That's a really old Mac Mini. |
**Jonathan Carter:** I was thinking this was 2006... |
**Jerod Santo:** It's got a Disk Drive. Is that a CD ROM, or a DVD Drive on that thing? |
**Jonathan Carter:** That is a DVD drive. |
**Jerod Santo:** Wow. I remember those. |
**Jonathan Carter:** This was my only Mac computer I ever bought. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** For those listening, Jonathan held up an old Mac Mini, showed it off, and Jerod and I immediately knew what he was showing off there. |
**Jerod Santo:** And it had an Ubuntu sticker on the corner. |
**Jonathan Carter:** Yeah. This was back when I used Ubuntu. I briefly ran Ubuntu on this Mac Mini in 2006. |
**Jerod Santo:** How do you feel about Ubuntu? I know you said Canonical, there were issues when you were involved... But as an operating system, maybe in comparison to Debian... Because it does have -- it's more modern in terms of like it's going to have more newer software on there for you, more maybe usable for a de... |
**Jonathan Carter:** Well, this is something that I liked about Debian 12 as well. For once, at least at release time, we had lots of new software. We had all the latest software at the time of release, which was great, because users are fine when things gradually get older, but when you even have outdated stuff by rel... |
Ubuntu feels very familiar to me because it also has apt and dpkg. I don't like when they swap out things, when you'd expect to get a Deb when you apt-install something and it actually swaps it out for Snap in the background. I think my study users don't like that much either. |
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