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**Adam Stacoviak:** That's sneaky... |
**Jonathan Carter:** That is a bit sneaky. They did that initially with the web browsers, and now they do that with more software. But yeah, I would want to get a Snap. If I snap-install something, and if I apt-install something, I want my Debian package installed. |
The other problem I have with Ubuntu is - well, they talk a lot about how they're free, and open, and open, and they want to share, but their binary packages aren't free. Their source packages are. What this means is if you want to build your product on Ubuntu and distribute it, you can't do that without signing a lice... |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. Close enough, right? |
**Jonathan Carter:** Yeah, exactly. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's what I'd do... In regards to Snap, that's how you can check your Snaplist, literally with Snaplist, and list out the Snaps you have installed. So if you've recently installed something with apt, or something else, and you feel like maybe you were SNAFU'd, just run Snaplist and you'll see what... |
**Jonathan Carter:** SNAFU'd, that's a new way -- |
**Jerod Santo:** I like that one. "Ah, they SNAFU'd me." Alright, so that's Ubuntu, Jonathan. Now do Arch. Come on, break it down. |
**Jonathan Carter:** \[01:02:02.16\] I love Arch. What's not to love? \[laughter\] The problem with Arch is the reason why we don't use Arch, is it doesn't have stable releases. So if you want to install it on 5,000 servers, or use it in your enterprise, or even in your university, it just changes too fast. You don't w... |
There are a lot more lax on certain things than we are. In Debian, for example, when you package something new in Debian, the Debian developer needs to go through all of the source code and document the copyright of literally every file in that upstream source tarball in the Debian copyright file. In Arch they just loo... |
So I think as a hobby system, Archie is fantastic, but for more professional stuff, I'd definitely stick with Debian. |
**Jerod Santo:** Makes sense. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** In regards to the state of the Enterprise Linux Standard, do you have opinions about that? ...this whole Red Hat, and Rocky, and CentOS, and... |
**Jerod Santo:** Alma Linux... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** All this different stuff that's kind of come down... What's the state of Enterprise Linux for you, open source Enterprise Linux Standard? |
**Jonathan Carter:** As far as I'm concerned, Debian is the only enterprise Linux that's exists. |
**Jerod Santo:** Good answer. |
**Jonathan Carter:** I was actually thinking of creating an enterprise theme for Debian that you can install. You apt-install a Debian theme, and it will show Debian Enterprise all over the system. Because what's an enterprise system? The biggest difference between Debian and enterprise systems is that they call themse... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Jonathan Carter:** The long-term support is a lot longer on Red Hat. I mean, you can go up to ten years with them. But if you delve deep into the issues, the reason why people want 10-year support is they want to install a system, and forget about it, and have very low maintenance for a very long time. And it turns o... |
It becomes clear, at least to us, and also to the people who use Debian out there, that it's actually better to have good regression testing and upgrades that work well, so that you can have a really easy, really quick upgrade that is almost effortless, than trying to maintain this weird stack of old software, and inte... |
**Jerod Santo:** \[01:06:16.04\] I like this idea, though... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** When I hear folks though -- like, this whole snafu with Red Hat Enterprise Linux, and if they can't have that, or if they can't have CentOS, they say, "Okay, well, then I want Rocky." I don't hear them say "I want Debian instead." Why do you think you feel that way? And I think that I don't disagree... |
**Jonathan Carter:** Well, we have lots of people moving to Debian after the Red Hat saga... But I think for some people, it's a case of they've invested-- they have all their configuration against Red Hat Linux, or CentOS, And they have so much config and software configured against that that it would be easy for them... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Is this something you're planning to take advantage of in somehow? Like, while you may be "enterprise" in your eyes or in the public's eyes, is this something y'all are planning to take advantage of? Is there a concerted effort inside to take advantage of this mungy standard, I suppose? |
**Jonathan Carter:** Not at all. Unfortunately, our marketing sucks. We're not good at promoting ourselves, or marketing... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You're painting a good picture. I love it. |
**Jonathan Carter:** And that this has been a concern brought up over the years with Debian, and we're trying some different things, but we're just not good at blowing our own trumpet. I am, because I'm Debian project lead, and I'm good at converting people to Debian. A few weeks ago my one Linux friends told me that L... |
**Jerod Santo:** I saw that. |
**Jonathan Carter:** I was going somewhere with this... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, you were talking about marketing. I'm curious if you all have -- well, it was more like is there a concerted effort on the inside to take advantage of this mushy term of the enterprise, the Open Source Enterprise Linux Standard? It's in question now because of the change that Red Hat made with... |
**Jonathan Carter:** Well, you probably saw that \[unintelligible 01:09:21.20\] is doing a hard fork of Red Hat Enterprise Linux... And it might be that Alma and Rocky might end up tracking that instead, and that that becomes a bigger -- I don't want to call it a standard, because it's not really a standard. Maybe it c... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's how I'm using the term... It's not literally in quotes the standard, but it kind of is based on usage. |
**Jonathan Carter:** Yeah, exactly. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right? A lot of enterprises do use Red Hat Enterprise Linux, and they often use CentOS, or they did before it changed and was acquired by Red Hat, and then changed in terms of Stream, and then they would use Rocky in tandem with Red Hat Enterprise Linux in production... One, because they just don't ... |
**Jonathan Carter:** \[01:10:17.10\] So if you look at the actual enterprise software that you'd need Red Hat Linux for like SAP, or an Oracle database server; these will never support the free variations of that system. If someone rebuilds the sources of Red Hat and say "I want to run SAP only", for example, they will... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. |
**Jonathan Carter:** So for certified software, you want the real thing; you want the Red Hat Linux or the Oracle Linux. Then there is another clause of software, like cPanel and the like; they actually sell themselves as a product that runs on RedHat Enterprise Linux, but if you run them on CentOS, they will run just ... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. No, I think they're gonna dilute their overall market share that way, through this process. It seems inevitable, as these changes continue to lose trust and credibility. |
**Jonathan Carter:** Also it's instability for your organization if you have to rely on whatever flavor of the day Red Hat \[unintelligible 01:11:53.16\] you have to use. |
**Jerod Santo:** That's one of the things I loved about Debian as I was using it back when I administered more servers than I do now. I wasn't afraid of any of the upgrades or anything. It was always just like "Yeah, go ahead, apt-get update", or whatever. Debian just worked. And I would upgrade it with impunity, becau... |
**Jonathan Carter:** I'm surprised that the likes of cPanel haven't started to support Ubuntu or Debian previously. But I think there's clout that comes with running on an Enterprise Linux system. CentOS even had a lot of clout around it, and I think that kind of \[unintelligible 01:13:24.14\] on top of that as well. |
**Jerod Santo:** Are there companies or entities that provide enterprise support around Debian, as you can hire them in a bind to come in and do stuff for you? |
**Jonathan Carter:** Yeah, there's quite a number of them. The biggest one I can think of is called Freexian which is not a very enterprisy name... |
**Jerod Santo:** No... |
**Jonathan Carter:** But they actually managed the LTS project for Debian, and the extended LTS project. So if you want to go above five years of support for a Debian system, you can sign a contract with them and they'll provide the longer-term supports. So if you have specific packages that you need to keep running, t... |
**Jerod Santo:** \[01:14:21.27\] Well, there's the COYA that many people need in order to make a choice like that... Because it's usually just that. It's usually like "Well, I don't want to have unmitigated risk, and so how can I somehow hedge against a catastrophe?" And the answer to that is some sort of support contr... |
**Jonathan Carter:** Unfortunately, we just don't match the global scale of these big companies like Red Hat or Oracle. Most of these companies, the bigger ones might cover big parts of Europe or big parts of the US, but no one is as global as Red Hat or Oracle. And maybe we'll get there. Maybe some of these companies ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** How long is it that you can continue to run for DPL? Here in the US a president can be president twice. Two terms. How many terms can you do as a DPL, for example? |
**Jonathan Carter:** I don't think there's a limit inside of the project. So you could probably go on forever if you have enough stamina. I'm at my end, so this is my last term. |
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