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[120.08 --> 122.58] You can create public workspaces to collaborate with the world's developers. |
[122.96 --> 124.62] You can back up your work to Postman's cloud. |
[124.62 --> 128.06] You can get their core tooling and collaboration for up to three users. |
[128.52 --> 132.72] Sign up and start using Postman for free today at postman.com slash changelogpod. |
[132.84 --> 139.12] Or for our listeners already using Postman, we encourage you to explore the entire API platform that Postman has to offer. |
[139.32 --> 141.62] Again, postman.com slash changelogpod. |
[141.62 --> 171.60] So we are joined by Bridget Murtaugh, a product manager on the Visual Studio. |
[171.62 --> 178.10] Code team at Microsoft and one of the co-authors or the people working on the Dev Containers spec. |
[178.24 --> 179.16] Bridget, welcome to the show. |
[179.64 --> 180.28] Thank you so much. |
[180.36 --> 181.14] I'm excited to be here. |
[181.46 --> 182.92] We are excited to have you. |
[182.96 --> 189.04] We're just learning about Dev Containers by way of a contributor to our changelog.com repo |
[189.04 --> 191.96] who wanted to hack on the repo. |
[192.20 --> 196.96] And if you go to our repo at github.com slash the changelog slash changelog.com |
[196.96 --> 199.52] and you try to hack on it, there's a contributing doc. |
[199.52 --> 201.46] And it's like, here's how you get all set up. |
[201.70 --> 203.06] And it's macOS only. |
[203.30 --> 204.50] And it's like very manual. |
[205.02 --> 207.06] Install this, install that, blah, blah, blah. |
[207.98 --> 210.60] Kind of lame, but straightforward if you've done it before. |
[210.80 --> 216.02] But if you're just a casual contributor or you're just getting started and you'd like to contribute, |
[216.02 --> 224.70] there's really no easy on-ramp until recently when Chris Eggert, perhaps a colleague of yours also working, |
[224.80 --> 229.52] he works at on Azure Resource Manager, wanted to help us fix a bug. |
[229.94 --> 235.06] And before he could do that, he hooked us up with a devcontainer.json. |
[235.06 --> 243.82] And all of a sudden, boom, you could launch our repo in code spaces and be staring at our code and running our code super quick. |
[243.94 --> 245.24] And I was like, this is cool. |
[245.42 --> 246.96] And he pointed us to Dev Containers. |
[247.28 --> 249.10] We followed that trail and we found you. |
[249.56 --> 250.50] So here you are. |
[250.58 --> 251.00] Here we are. |
[251.22 --> 253.96] I'm glad the trail led to me and we can talk today. |
[254.90 --> 255.76] So are we. |
[255.88 --> 256.48] It was awesome. |
[256.68 --> 258.48] I'm glad that you agreed to join us. |
[258.48 --> 266.52] I think we hit you up six ways from Sunday, LinkedIn, GitHub, email, and then by way of our co-friend, Brett Cannon, |
[266.68 --> 270.32] who also put in a good word and we're like, we're getting bridged on the show one way or the other. |
[270.46 --> 272.08] I mean, you can't say no when you get that many. |
[272.18 --> 273.16] Well, you can say no. |
[273.22 --> 274.04] This wouldn't be polite. |
[274.30 --> 274.50] Yeah. |
[274.58 --> 276.18] You could just block us from everything. |
[276.34 --> 277.36] And so these guys are creepy. |
[278.08 --> 279.50] But thankfully you didn't. |
[279.98 --> 286.76] And yeah, we'd love to learn more about containers.dev, what it is and what y'all are up to. |
[286.76 --> 290.40] You want to open up with us and just tell us what containers.dev is. |
[290.68 --> 291.78] Yeah, that sounds good. |
[291.98 --> 300.40] So anyone listening, you can go to containers.dev in your browser and you're going to see our overview spec site for the Dev Container Specification. |
[301.06 --> 314.10] And like Jared was describing, Dev Containers are, if you haven't heard of them before, this really awesome tool to help you get up and running with applications or projects or repos that you're working on without having to really download anything locally. |
[314.10 --> 322.14] Especially depending on your setup, maybe you need Docker locally, but you can also do other cloud-based environments like GitHub Codespaces like Jared was describing. |
[322.32 --> 325.10] So that way you really don't even have to download or run anything locally. |
[326.12 --> 329.26] And essentially there's a couple of files that configure Dev Container. |
[329.48 --> 331.70] And so that's what was added to the changelogs repo. |
[331.70 --> 337.96] So there's a devcontainer.json, which just describes the metadata about what should go into your container. |
[338.42 --> 348.88] And then you can also link out to a Docker file, which you may have heard of or be familiar with if you've worked with containers at all that can talk about some other things to install or set up for your environment. |
[349.84 --> 357.00] And with Dev Container.json, you can really extend it with what you want specifically for a development environment. |
[357.00 --> 367.44] And so with containers in general, if you've heard of them or used up in other applications, you may think, okay, cool, that's a way to standardize what my app has when it's deployed or when it's off running in production. |
[368.04 --> 376.78] But there's a lot of other opportunities to standardize what your app is doing or how you're working on it earlier on from when you're developing it to doing CICD and testing. |
[376.78 --> 387.46] So then having a dev container now, which can have that same consistent tool set and languages, whatever your app needs from development all the way to production and testing, it really ensures that I know how it's running. |
[387.68 --> 390.40] When I'm testing it, I'm going to get that same experience that's deployed. |
[390.94 --> 395.26] Other teammates get that experience, too, because it can all be checked directly into the source code or the repo. |
[395.26 --> 403.64] And it tries to kind of take away some of the worries you may have, like, oh, Linux or Docker container seems hard or complex. |
[403.64 --> 416.24] We really try to simplify some things with scripts or other ways that it's like, hey, I can add this and I can add really advanced functionality, but I don't have to go learn everything about how to be a Linux scripting expert to get started. |
[416.24 --> 426.96] I love it conceptually. I know that when Docker first became a thing and people started using it, I thought of Docker as a thing to put production stuff in. |
[427.22 --> 430.62] And then I thought, well, I'll just put my development stuff in there. |
[430.76 --> 436.66] And then when I'm ready, I'll do like Docker go prod mode or something and I would be done. |
[437.18 --> 441.02] And what I realized quickly was it wasn't the case. |
[441.02 --> 447.46] Like it was kind of you could do them both, but most people use it for dev or like some people were using it for prod back then. |
[447.52 --> 453.80] Really, it was dev first and it was really cool to be able to like ship your dev environment around to people via this Docker file. |
[454.16 --> 464.66] But it was what burned in my mind back then was how different dev and prod really were with regard to the containers and I guess the concerns of those containers. |
[465.22 --> 467.00] They always seem to be slightly different. |
[467.00 --> 474.20] And that's something that you guys point out on the website is that dev containers and production containers often have different needs. |
[474.28 --> 477.40] And dev containers usually have a lot more needs. |
[477.54 --> 478.20] Is that right? |
[478.68 --> 479.52] Yeah, exactly. |
[479.82 --> 486.12] So you could think of if I'm opening up my favorite editor IDE and what am I typically using to work on my project? |
[486.26 --> 494.50] Like, yeah, if it's a Python app, I'm going to need Python installed and I'm going to need that whether I'm in the process of creating my project or if it's deployed. |
[494.50 --> 501.30] But also, maybe I have some specific editor settings that I like or maybe I have a theme or maybe I have extensions or plugins. |
[501.30 --> 509.94] It'd be awesome if, hey, that really helps with my development every time, especially if it's language specific extensions that really enhance my coding experience. |
[510.34 --> 513.14] If I can just make sure every time I'm opening up my editor, those are already there. |
[513.24 --> 523.92] That saves me time and that helps that if other people are working on this project too, I don't have to tell them, oh, hey, like, go check out this contributing file and figure out all these extra things you need to install. |
[524.04 --> 528.52] It's like, hey, just make sure that you have your dev container JSON and the branch you're working on and you're good to go. |
[528.52 --> 532.26] So, that is kind of beautiful that that can work like that. |
[532.36 --> 534.56] I mean, it's been a while since Docker. |
[534.68 --> 536.46] I mean, like, Docker's been around. |
[536.64 --> 537.18] It's gotten better. |
[537.26 --> 538.02] This has been more mature. |
[538.10 --> 544.32] And I kind of feel like the resistance is somewhat futile for this cloud world to take over our dev environments. |
[544.42 --> 546.14] We talked to Corda Wilkerson about a while back. |
[546.80 --> 551.02] I think it was called Coding in the Clouds, honestly, with Codespaces, which is a cool title for the show. |
[551.02 --> 558.86] But I think ever since then, we've had this idea to get changelog.com into a Codespace or into this, like, Codespace is friendly, essentially. |
[559.70 --> 566.36] And only until this commit to this drive-by contribution to help us are we somewhat there. |
[566.94 --> 570.02] And the cool thing is, is that person wanted to contribute. |
[570.84 --> 572.66] And I think this is really great for open source, right? |
[572.66 --> 579.88] Like, this is not just good for, like, dev environments and, like, plugins and extensions and themes and all these extra things that make your time go fast. |
[579.88 --> 593.36] But also, like, well, we would love to encourage folks not to just contribute, but, like, just to play a role in where our platform is going and where this community is going in terms of how we entertain and inform developers over many, many years, decades now. |
[593.66 --> 594.72] Or at least one decade. |
[594.84 --> 596.96] Maybe it would be two decades, Jerry, if we're lucky, right? |
[597.14 --> 597.58] Roundup. |
[597.60 --> 598.76] Decade, right? |
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