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[598.84 --> 599.72] For a decade now. |
[599.72 --> 601.88] It started as a contribution to get into the cloud. |
[601.98 --> 602.72] I think this is kind of cool. |
[602.84 --> 605.98] But do you feel like, maybe, Jerry, this is more towards you. |
[606.14 --> 612.62] Like, do you feel like this is futile, this resistance towards, like, cloud, dev environments, running this thing like that? |
[612.66 --> 615.00] Like, do you think it's resistance to just, like, forget it? |
[615.46 --> 618.28] I feel like you are attacking me personally at this point because I am resistant. |
[618.50 --> 626.74] Well, as Bridget will probably point out, you know, Codespaces is very much in the cloud insofar as you're literally running it in a browser tab, right? |
[627.42 --> 628.42] And that's one thing. |
[628.42 --> 637.26] But what this dev container thing provides is not just, it's cloud-based coding, but you're still local with your VS Code, for instance. |
[637.40 --> 644.92] And, of course, as we talk about the spec and what your team's desires are for this spec is it's going to be more than just VS Code. |
[645.36 --> 646.90] It can be more than just Codespaces. |
[646.90 --> 651.62] Of course, Microsoft is really front-running this idea and this spec. |
[651.94 --> 664.86] I do think it's probably futile because there's so much upside to the containerization, to the repeatability, to the sort of, like, your dev infrastructure as code. |
[664.94 --> 666.16] Like, having it all right there. |
[666.16 --> 668.62] And then just teamwork, you know? |
[669.02 --> 671.60] Teamwork tends to be what makes the dream work. |
[671.72 --> 672.08] I don't know. |
[672.26 --> 673.24] What do you think, Bridget? |
[673.28 --> 673.78] Is it futile? |
[674.00 --> 675.16] I was going to say the same thing. |
[675.32 --> 677.08] I was like, maybe that's too cheesy. |
[677.20 --> 678.42] But you said it first, so. |
[678.62 --> 678.96] Sorry. |
[678.96 --> 683.78] Oh, I never let a cheesy moment go by. |
[684.68 --> 685.08] Yeah. |
[685.30 --> 692.02] I mean, I think as well as we're seeing all these kinds of systems and tools and tooling get better. |
[692.22 --> 698.70] Like, we're seeing cloud-based environment not be something where it's like, well, like, I'm probably going to lose all my work there. |
[698.80 --> 699.76] It's not going to run right. |
[699.88 --> 703.34] It's like, no, it probably is going to be a pretty consistent, reliable experience. |
[703.34 --> 711.68] And then, yeah, if maybe you don't have an internet connection or there's times where, yeah, like, I don't know, maybe I just prefer to have it locally on my machine. |
[712.14 --> 717.72] Having that same consistent dev container setups, that way I could use it in local VS code. |
[717.80 --> 719.80] And what we have is called the dev containers extension. |
[720.10 --> 723.62] Or I could even use it just on the CLI, so out of any kind of editor. |
[724.02 --> 731.92] Because what's backing the dev containers extension and what's backing GitHub Codespaces is a CLI that can read in, hey, your project has a dev container JSON. |
[731.92 --> 738.24] So let's go ahead and, like, set things up right so that way you can, like, develop in this development container. |
[738.84 --> 740.74] And so we've now open sourced that CLI. |
[740.90 --> 745.06] So, hey, no matter where you want to code, you can have a consistent dev environment anywhere. |
[745.98 --> 746.08] Yeah. |
[746.68 --> 751.34] I think for me the resistance has been against layers, like adding more and more layers. |
[751.60 --> 755.58] And for me, especially running on a Mac, Docker was always so slow. |
[756.12 --> 758.06] And I know there's been a lot of work put into that. |
[758.14 --> 759.46] I think it's gotten faster lately. |
[759.46 --> 762.38] I just never liked the Docker dev experience. |
[762.38 --> 765.16] That's why I was very excited that it was going to be, like, a production thing. |
[765.22 --> 767.86] And that eventually manifested, at least in terms of containers. |
[768.42 --> 771.38] But I just didn't want so many layers. |
[771.78 --> 777.38] And very little upside, especially working on small or individual projects, which I often do. |
[777.78 --> 778.84] And so that's my resistance. |
[778.84 --> 788.90] But when I see the upside and when I see the effect of the layering not be as dramatic as it has been in the past, we're like, wow, it's super slow now because I'm running through Docker. |
[789.74 --> 793.14] Whereas it could be super fast because I'm right here on my local machine. |
[793.14 --> 799.34] And I think that I will not be as resistant in the future as I have been in the past. |
[799.70 --> 801.10] At least I hope not to be. |
[801.30 --> 802.20] You know, I am getting older. |
[802.66 --> 803.82] We do get set in our ways. |
[803.82 --> 810.26] At a certain point, for a lot of us, at a certain point, progress just kind of goes on. |
[810.60 --> 812.28] And we just kind of stop at a certain place. |
[812.36 --> 812.92] Maybe I'll get there. |
[812.98 --> 813.30] I don't know. |
[813.50 --> 814.86] I hope not to as a developer. |
[815.18 --> 817.28] But I was just thinking this reminds me of like a smell. |
[817.28 --> 821.36] Like this is something that I think Steve Jobs kind of talked about back in the day. |
[821.42 --> 826.04] One of the more famous kind of interviews or quotes, I'm not really sure how you describe it. |
[826.06 --> 829.94] But one thing he said was you have to work backwards from the user experience. |
[830.42 --> 830.56] Right. |
[830.60 --> 840.34] I think this is an example of a smell like your user experience, Jared, you desired is just not what traditionally a cloud based environment would really give you or Docker would give you. |
[840.40 --> 841.74] It's sort of like as these layers. |
[841.74 --> 857.64] And so this is a problem that Bridget, you and her team, I'm sure, are probably very keen on and very sure of because you have to work from what's the user experience we desire back from the tech versus here's dev containers and what it offers and fit it into these non-round holes. |
[858.42 --> 860.50] You know, that's really what I think comes to mind here. |
[860.54 --> 865.30] It's like how close are we to this being the, I guess, magic slash silver bullet? |
[865.30 --> 872.14] Did you work backward from the experience to the tech or was it tech and then, hey, here's this beautiful tech. |
[872.50 --> 873.42] Where's the use for it? |
[873.78 --> 887.50] Yeah, I mean, I think definitely starting with user feedback, the users and what we want their experience to be, what we really hope to do with anything dev container related or even just beyond in general product VS Code sense and all that. |
[887.50 --> 895.62] So we first published the remote development extensions in VS Code where dev containers is one of them in 2019. |
[896.06 --> 905.26] And that was really with the mindset of, hey, like we're getting this customer feedback that I want to develop in something that has maybe the tools that I already need. |
[905.26 --> 917.70] And I don't need to clutter my local development environment or it can be overwhelming or for some of our other remote development experiences, like we have a remote SSH extension or we have a remote WSL or Windows for subsystem for Linux extension. |
[918.54 --> 926.42] And so with those, it's like we also got similar feedback of, hey, I want to use the Windows subsystem for Linux, but maybe it doesn't interface with VS Code super nicely. |
[926.42 --> 927.46] And I love VS Code too. |
[927.46 --> 928.12] What can I do? |
[928.42 --> 938.46] I'm always like developing on a VM or on my desktop in the office when I'm away, but it'd be great if I could just have something that's like faster and I don't have to upload and download files specifically. |
[938.46 --> 941.34] It's all just there already and feels more built in and more native. |
[942.04 --> 948.42] So I think like getting that feedback is really what's sculpted of, hey, let's start investing in remote development as that's something that people really need. |
[948.48 --> 951.16] And that's where the market and user needs are going. |
[951.16 --> 958.14] And then from there, yeah, as we design new things with dev containers and trying to make it easier for users to use and helping them a variety of apps. |
[958.30 --> 960.72] It's always coming back to like, what are they asking for? |
[960.84 --> 964.04] What are our top feature requests and issues and all that kind of stuff? |
[964.08 --> 966.88] Because all this, we really work in the open as much as possible. |
[966.88 --> 971.56] So getting that user feedback is something we really value and we really try to incorporate it every step of the way. |
[972.66 --> 975.84] Is this VS Code users is like Visual Studio Code? |
[976.00 --> 979.08] Is there a difference between like Visual Studio Code and VS Code? |
[979.22 --> 979.90] Same thing. |
[979.90 --> 983.86] If you want to write out the whole name of Visual Studio Code, you totally can. |
[983.96 --> 985.02] VS Code is the same. |
[985.16 --> 985.94] When did it merge? |
[986.06 --> 988.04] Wasn't there like a paid version that wasn't open source? |
[988.32 --> 989.44] Well, it's Visual Studio. |
[989.76 --> 991.42] Visual Studio is a separate IDE. |
[991.78 --> 992.00] Right. |
[992.50 --> 992.86] Okay. |
[993.46 --> 994.72] Such a confusing thing for me. |
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