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[2425.66 --> 2431.72] in the world of open source i think that gets perhaps shrouded in other things like the hosting of you know |
[2431.72 --> 2435.82] open source projects and commercializing of that which is what we talk about more often i think |
[2435.82 --> 2442.92] what's your perspective on that um we want to do it through action we don't we want to do it through |
[2442.92 --> 2450.52] participating in communities by giving back by supporting maintainers and projects and foundations |
[2450.52 --> 2460.10] uh rather than just telling yeah and so i hope you've seen over the years that we are showing up more |
[2460.10 --> 2470.48] in open source forums uh we we donate a lot of aws credits for example that's true we do github sponsors |
[2470.48 --> 2481.38] uh we support foundations like the open ssf apache foundation uh linux foundation project cncf that sort |
[2481.38 --> 2488.10] of thing and we have lots of developers who are behind the scenes actually contributing to projects |
[2488.10 --> 2494.56] it's never enough because all of us consume a lot so we we have to keep working on that |
[2494.56 --> 2502.08] and most businesses not just amazon is challenged with business justification why should i dedicate |
[2502.08 --> 2508.86] you know five engineers to doing this work because there's so many competing needs right customer needs |
[2508.86 --> 2515.62] and product development needs and so on and so forth so we work hard as an ospo and open source marketing |
[2515.62 --> 2521.98] team who's downstairs at our booth to work with businesses to educate them on why they should be |
[2521.98 --> 2528.80] involved why they should contribute back what's the business case for setting aside people to do it so |
[2528.80 --> 2536.02] those are the ways we help the business do more with open source but we have to have a good business |
[2536.02 --> 2544.30] decision decision and argument uh because business is no business and they need the return on investment |
[2544.30 --> 2550.48] or justification for why they should be involved what are some of the things that your ospo does to |
[2550.48 --> 2557.28] enable these different business units to adopt open source to maintain open source to do more like what are the |
[2557.28 --> 2565.74] kind of things that helps them get there one of the easy things ospos can do is to create easier policies |
[2565.74 --> 2576.86] so in in a very restrictive regime uh you can make developers ask for permission go to lawyers and ask for |
[2576.86 --> 2583.22] permission for everything they use yeah which will deter them from using open source so we streamline |
[2583.22 --> 2590.40] and we make sure that a lot of open source licenses are already green lighted and that they automatically |
[2590.40 --> 2596.84] flow through the system without a ticket being cut or permission being asked so that's one easy way you |
[2596.84 --> 2603.90] make it easy for people to consume it we have relaxed some of the rules for contribution back if it's a |
[2603.90 --> 2608.64] simple contribution you don't even have to cut a ticket you can just go contribute okay even for |
[2608.64 --> 2616.62] releasing software uh we have something called simple releases so if it is a sample or a scientific work |
[2616.62 --> 2623.62] etc you don't even have to cut a ticket you can just release it and even the rules for reviewing |
[2623.62 --> 2631.42] bigger release of projects and stuff we really work with the business to help them see what the business |
[2631.42 --> 2638.24] reason is for contributing and how to run a successful project once you contribute it because you just |
[2638.24 --> 2645.22] don't want to dump it on github and run you want to be able to maintain it build a community a neutral |
[2645.22 --> 2652.02] governance all that stuff so we kind of make it easy in that fashion for business owners to know |
[2652.02 --> 2661.20] that we are here to support you and make it easier for you to do open source a lot of times teams don't want |
[2661.20 --> 2666.82] to do it because i'll say i don't want to go talk to our ip lawyer and i don't want to have to justify |
[2666.82 --> 2674.28] why i need to do this but if you take away all those excuses then it becomes easier for people to |
[2674.28 --> 2681.66] go do it how long has been the ospo been in place has it been in place for years half a decade eight |
[2681.66 --> 2686.78] years i mean they've become more popular in the last i would say five to eight years roughly but |
[2686.78 --> 2691.36] that's probably even farther fetching like more like in the last three to five how long has this ospo |
[2691.36 --> 2697.90] been in place the amazon ospo has been in place almost since 2007 2008 believe it or not really |
[2697.90 --> 2704.60] even further okay yeah one of my but it wasn't called an ospo 16 years yeah okay what was the |
[2704.60 --> 2711.12] version of it i think it was just called an open source office open source strategy office right or |
[2711.12 --> 2720.86] open source approvers my colleague henry yondel who is in my team he started it uh it was because |
[2720.86 --> 2727.82] you know the the gms and lawyers said please come someone who's knowledgeable cost a lot more |
[2727.82 --> 2733.58] money right lawyers cost a lot of money what attorneys yes right yes hour so i would much |
[2733.58 --> 2739.14] rather have policy in place that i can reference than a lawyer that has to spend an hour to charge |
[2739.14 --> 2746.06] you 700 bucks right any and maybe that's even cheap for an amazon type of attorney it's funny you |
[2746.06 --> 2750.16] mentioned that a lot of companies start their open source program office because they say |
[2750.16 --> 2755.98] we can't have everybody go to our lawyers and ask questions so if you have thousands of developers |
[2755.98 --> 2760.62] yeah all pinging them and say can i use this license can i use this license can i contribute this |
[2760.62 --> 2769.10] can i release this it is it it chews up a lot of valuable uh attorney time so often ospos kind of act as |
[2769.10 --> 2776.54] the front line and we we kind of act as the in between developers and legal and we handle a lot |
[2776.54 --> 2781.50] of the questions and the issues and the tickets that's funny it's called open source programs office |
[2781.50 --> 2789.02] when it's that yeah right like it's essentially the gateway to legal the cheaper not not just it's |
[2789.02 --> 2794.54] one role you described it just now i'm not saying that's only the way it is that's how a lot of ospos get started |
[2794.54 --> 2801.18] right because you have to do compliance when you consume open source right but then you know good |
[2801.18 --> 2809.18] ospos go beyond that and actually make it easy to work with community they go do uh they go work with |
[2809.18 --> 2818.22] foundations they publish they speak they share best practices you know they help the the company be a |
[2818.22 --> 2824.22] contributor and a leader in the community so you need to take it past compliance into |
[2825.18 --> 2831.26] really leaving something behind so yeah i mean general the generic ospo has been around for the |
[2831.26 --> 2839.10] last 10 15 years google facebook everyone had an open source program office there was a group called |
[2839.10 --> 2845.50] the to-do group which sits in the linux foundation which came along and created kind of a support system |
[2845.50 --> 2852.78] for open source program offices to share best practices across teams because we are all trying to do the same |
[2852.78 --> 2859.82] thing trying to make it easy for our developers to work in open source try to ease the legal burden try to |
[2859.82 --> 2865.74] engage more try to respect the norms of open source be a good citizen you know all of those kinds of things |
[2865.74 --> 2872.54] what are some of the challenges that you face now like today this week this month what are some |
[2872.54 --> 2877.34] challenges you're dealing with positive and negative like positive challenges in terms of like we gotta |
[2877.34 --> 2881.66] get this done this is a great thing and also ones like this sucks we gotta just deal with this and make it better |
[2881.66 --> 2889.82] i think scaling um what we do across the company is one of the challenges because especially in a large |
[2889.82 --> 2896.86] company when you have thousands of developers who you need to make aware of the policies and processes |
[2896.86 --> 2903.90] that we are here to help you it's hard to get the word across so we've been working on a program called |
[2903.90 --> 2913.02] champions where we have people in businesses become open source champions and enthusiasts and so you have a |
[2913.02 --> 2920.70] local person that you can talk to instead of coming to an ospo all the time because ospos typically tend to be small |
[2920.70 --> 2928.30] and they're serving thousands of developers so today we have 230 champions in the company that help local |
[2928.30 --> 2934.62] businesses across amazon have a local person who's an expert that they can reach out to right and they |
[2934.62 --> 2941.66] can then reach out to us if necessary so scaling is a challenge uh the second challenge is open source |
[2941.66 --> 2948.70] security and all the different places we need to get involved in from an open source security perspective |
[2948.70 --> 2956.38] working with open ssf working with upstream producers working with our security teams inside the company |
[2956.94 --> 2964.54] working with policy makers uh there's there's a lot going on in security so that's another big area of |
[2964.54 --> 2973.50] interest the third is ai um what's the role of open source in ai what are the different artifacts in ai |
[2974.46 --> 2977.18] how are they going to be licensed from an open source perspective |
[2977.18 --> 2984.54] working with osi and and trying to get our arms around making sure that we have a standard for |
[2984.54 --> 2992.22] open source artifacts is is important yeah and and you know with all of us using more and more models |
[2992.22 --> 3001.18] and more data sets helping our legal team again like we did for licenses helping them review and approve |
[3001.18 --> 3008.54] model use and data set use uh is something we're trying to do and finding good people to build your |
[3008.54 --> 3013.90] ospo is always hard yeah it probably is there's only a small group of people that would be people |
[3013.90 --> 3021.42] people that also like policy how did you land here how did i land at amazon well specifically in the ospo |
[3021.42 --> 3027.18] director of ospo like what brought you there yes i've been working in open source for 25 years now |
[3027.18 --> 3034.54] uh the my first job in open source was at silicon graphics uh working on open source strategy and |
[3034.54 --> 3041.02] support uh and i loved open source i fell in love and i said because it's such an intersectional |
[3042.06 --> 3052.22] role of strategy community technology law uh and it's just fabulous so i've been working in various |
[3052.22 --> 3058.14] companies companies in open source and it was about 10 years ago i was at sandisk and |
[3058.14 --> 3065.74] um my manager said to me i was the director of marketing there and he said you know every time |
[3065.74 --> 3071.34] you work with open source your eyes light up and maybe you should go do open source for the whole company |
[3072.30 --> 3079.10] and that kind of gave me the bug of yeah maybe i should run open source strategy for sandisk and i |
[3079.10 --> 3086.06] started i pitched the idea to our svp of marketing uh engineering and he said yes we need someone |
[3086.06 --> 3093.42] doing that so i became the first director of open source strategy at sandisk which then led to becoming |
[3094.94 --> 3103.10] the senior director of open source at comcast for five years so i started these ospo there and built it all |
[3103.10 --> 3109.98] the way and then so when amazon was looking for someone to lead their ospo they came to talk to me |
[3110.86 --> 3118.46] and i love the challenge of the scale of amazon and the width and breadth of things that they do |
[3119.42 --> 3126.06] and it's it's an open source geek's dream to kind of look at all of the different use cases and |
[3126.06 --> 3133.90] how we work in open source so here i am that's a good story yeah it's a fun journey what was that |
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