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[3799.66 --> 3804.78] because it's a pretty large investment and so the fact that the sophistication of those tools inside |
[3804.78 --> 3811.02] these companies have advanced so much and that's like left behind most of the other companies and the |
[3811.02 --> 3816.86] tooling that they're they get access to is that's that's exactly the opportunity that i was like okay well we |
[3816.86 --> 3823.26] need to bring those sophistication um outside so everybody can be you know benefiting from these okay |
[3823.26 --> 3830.78] the next step is to go to statsig.com slash changelaw they're offering our fans free white glove |
[3830.78 --> 3838.70] onboarding including migration support in addition to five million free events per month that's massive |
[3838.70 --> 3849.34] test drive stat sig today at statsig.com slash changelaw that's s-t-a-t-s-i-g.com slash changelaw the link is in the show notes |
[3849.34 --> 3870.30] all right well we have uh jordan harband hey man welcome good good good thanks for having me |
[3870.30 --> 3875.74] you are an open source maintainer at large i know you mostly through the javascript side of things tell us about yourself |
[3875.74 --> 3883.66] yeah um let's see so i maintain 400 450 some npm packages as well as nvm um they account for like |
[3883.66 --> 3889.98] five to ten percent of npm's download traffic which is terrifyingly high i've been on tc39 which is the |
[3889.98 --> 3896.38] javascript standards committee right since 2014 i was an editor of the spec for three years um long time |
[3896.38 --> 3903.50] yeah when do you sleep then well i in between you know open source and taking care of my kids |
[3903.50 --> 3910.62] i squeeze in a few hours here and there wow yeah 450 repositories surely those all those don't all |
[3910.62 --> 3915.90] require active maintenance no i the vast majority of them are effectively done and only need occasional |
[3915.90 --> 3921.82] like dependency updates and things like that so it's um you know there's it's the that 80 20 thing |
[3921.82 --> 3928.30] right 20 of the packages take 80 of my time right you know the rest are pretty self self-sufficient okay |
[3928.30 --> 3935.82] from the tc39 lens when is temporal coming so when can we use this yeah so that that when can we use |
[3935.82 --> 3941.74] it is the right question so temporal's been stage three for two years now uh stage three usually is the |
[3941.74 --> 3948.54] time to signal hey browsers you can ship this users you can start using it um however temporal has had |
[3948.54 --> 3954.86] uh what we call normative changes like observable changes from javascript uh for almost every two months |
[3954.86 --> 3960.62] since it got stage three which to me tells me it's not ready like api changes or what do you mean |
[3961.18 --> 3966.06] some minor api changes some semantic changes it's it's because it's such a large and complex proposal |
[3966.06 --> 3971.90] that it was a largely impossible to thoroughly review it before it got to stage three everyone |
[3971.90 --> 3976.62] did what it is he doesn't know what it is yeah so uh school me have you ever written stuff with code |
[3976.62 --> 3982.62] with the date object in javascript yeah uh so you may understand you may realize that the date object sucks |
[3982.62 --> 3986.70] it is awful okay it's api is terrible it's like i haven't used enough to know that that's fine |
[3986.70 --> 3991.50] a lot of things yeah it it's like mutable so you can change it all the time which means it's hard to |
[3991.50 --> 3997.18] keep track of what things are it can't be trusted uh it has really poor support for localization and |
[3997.18 --> 4002.46] all the different time zones in the world and it's really hard to do date and time math that's reliable |
[4002.46 --> 4007.66] and so on so temporal is a proposal that was originally championed by the moment js maintainers |
[4007.66 --> 4015.90] that uh it basically provides like i think it's seven new globals that all uh that they're all |
[4015.90 --> 4023.98] under the the temporal object that allow you to do like reasonable date time operations uh and so it |
[4023.98 --> 4030.38] takes a lot of inspiration from uh actually a java library called joda time um and although i'm not a |
[4030.38 --> 4035.26] big fan of java or taking inspiration from java like this actually is is a java library that's done things |
[4035.26 --> 4040.14] really right and you know we've still of course made some tweaks to make it fit javascript idioms |
[4040.14 --> 4046.06] like java uh that's a that's a topic for another time okay all right fair enough but but either way |
[4046.06 --> 4051.18] the like you can do you'll be able to create a timestamp effectively as one object you'll be able |
[4051.18 --> 4055.26] to create like your birthday that doesn't have a time associated with it so be you'll be able to |
[4055.26 --> 4061.34] create just a day year and month and that's all it represents you'll be able to create a duration |
[4061.34 --> 4066.62] like an object that spans two timestamps and you'll be able to do reasonable things with that so it's |
[4066.62 --> 4071.50] going to make working with dates and times infinitely easier and less painful in javascript so i'm very |
[4071.50 --> 4076.06] excited as are a lot of other people about being able to use this as am i well hence i say when can |
[4076.06 --> 4081.50] i use exactly so okay so it's been in it's a third it's been working on it a while so the stages are zero |
[4081.50 --> 4086.06] through four okay four is when it lands in the spec three is usually when things start shipping it when you |
[4086.06 --> 4091.02] can use it um and it's been in stage three for two years but we just had a tc39 meeting two or three |
[4091.02 --> 4095.90] weeks ago and that was the first tc39 meeting since it got stage three that there were no normative |
[4095.90 --> 4100.86] changes to it okay so i'm settling down yes so it's settling down exactly and i'm i'm holding my |
[4100.86 --> 4106.70] breath because if at the next tc39 meeting it doesn't have any normative changes that's when like |
[4106.70 --> 4112.78] so i'm a polyfill maintainer i have like a hundred plus different polyfills uh for for language features |
[4112.78 --> 4118.06] so if in the next tc39 meeting it doesn't have any normative changes to me that tells me it's ready |
[4118.06 --> 4122.14] for me to start implementing it as a polyfill yeah which you know everybody can have their own |
[4122.14 --> 4126.06] signals you don't have to rely on just what i say but if i feel like it's worthy for a polyfill |
[4126.06 --> 4129.82] that's when i'm going to start recommending people use it in production because at that point it's |
[4129.82 --> 4134.78] stable enough uh and there is it available to use but just not stable so you shouldn't use it basically |
[4134.78 --> 4139.82] that's exactly right there are polyfills out there but they don't typically a polyfill tries to be as |
[4139.82 --> 4145.18] backwards compatible as possible so you can use the new feature in the oldest possible environments the |
[4145.18 --> 4149.90] polyfills that are currently available don't have that as a goal they're just trying to replicate |
[4149.90 --> 4156.06] the api in modern feature with modern features so um that's good enough if you happen to be |
[4156.06 --> 4161.50] supporting like just the latest chrome or something but most production web apps need to support farther |
[4161.50 --> 4166.94] back than that in every browser and so and in addition in addition to that there's those api changes |
[4166.94 --> 4171.10] i told you about so that's why you i would say you shouldn't have been using it in production yet |
[4171.10 --> 4175.34] yeah but now that the api is settling down i'm hoping that that will change and we'll all be |
[4175.34 --> 4181.02] able to start using it okay when your polyfill is done let us know we'll have a big js party absolutely |
[4181.02 --> 4185.42] we'll all celebrate so have the moment js folks actually obsoleted themselves or will you still |
[4185.42 --> 4189.42] need something like that they they will have once temporal is usable in production just completely |
[4189.98 --> 4195.82] unfortunately for in my opinion they announced that moment is done essentially like two years ago yeah |
[4195.82 --> 4201.18] um and i don't think they used the term deprecated but essentially they're saying you probably should |
[4201.18 --> 4206.46] stop using moment we're not going to change it anymore like go use temporal but because temporal |
[4206.46 --> 4212.94] wasn't quite stable yet like i wish they had saved that kind of uh impact for the moment when it's |
[4212.94 --> 4217.42] stable but nonetheless um all of those things will become aligned at the point where temporal is |
[4217.42 --> 4222.46] stable and ready to use you have closed doors and people waiting outside exactly long line of |
[4222.46 --> 4228.06] people give me the black friday temporal day exactly right and it is coming rush let's use it |
[4228.06 --> 4231.98] okay certainly there's a lot of people that are still using moment you know absolutely for sure yeah |
[4232.78 --> 4237.98] and i have a library that i i maintain as well that uses moment and as and i'm going to migrate it |
[4237.98 --> 4242.22] straight to temporal yeah people have been asking me to migrate it to date functions or the other |
[4242.22 --> 4247.10] alternatives out there and i just didn't want to do two migrations because the instant temporal is usable |
[4247.10 --> 4251.50] everything else is obsolete so i'm just going to wait until temporal is the thing i can migrate to so |
[4251.50 --> 4256.86] that'll be exciting that'll be an exciting day absolutely thinking about your open source and |
[4256.86 --> 4263.26] your life and your lack of sleep are you able to make money off of this have you been i mean because |
[4263.26 --> 4268.54] you you're kind of crucial at this point to the npm ecosystem as a as a human it seems yeah i mean |
[4269.10 --> 4276.54] i would say that the amount i make off of my projects is i'm very grateful for it and it's enough |
[4276.54 --> 4282.46] that if i were single and in my 20s i could do it full time but i am not single and i have kids and |
[4282.46 --> 4291.42] i'm not in my 20s and uh it just doesn't cover the bills so um i've done the math and if my most |
[4291.42 --> 4297.66] lucrative package like i look at my most lucrative package and then i look at the my most used package |
[4297.66 --> 4302.30] and if i extrapolated all that out for all my packages i would be able to do open source full time |
[4302.30 --> 4308.06] um but at the moment that's not the case so i i would definitely be very happy to see a world where |
[4308.62 --> 4314.70] all of the profitable corporations that are using you know people's open source packages mine included |
[4314.70 --> 4318.78] are able to contribute even a tiny fraction of their profit at that point i think it will become |
[4318.78 --> 4325.02] a much more viable world for open source maintainers what accounts for the diff between those two things |
[4325.02 --> 4331.26] um i just think it's uh because there's no like so this is capitalism the world we live in right |
[4331.26 --> 4335.82] sure which means that there's only two levers you can apply capital and regulation and there's no |
[4335.82 --> 4343.34] regulation that's forcing anyone to contribute to their you know tech infrastructure their open source |
[4343.34 --> 4348.30] tech infrastructure uh you could perhaps look at fiduciary duty and say that they do in fact have |
[4348.30 --> 4353.66] a requirement but it's not enforced in that way at least right um so without the regulation there needs |
[4353.66 --> 4358.78] to be a capital incentive for them to do it and there is one it's just a really hard one to |
[4358.78 --> 4362.38] it's invisible sometimes yeah it's invisible it's really hard to talk about it in a way that's |
[4362.38 --> 4367.26] quantifiable you can point to and be like you have risked this amount of money because you didn't invest |
[4367.26 --> 4372.14] in this thing it's it's like really hard to demonstrate an roi or impact to the bottom line |
[4372.14 --> 4377.34] right um but it absolutely i think ties like it couples to everyone's bottom line and that if you |
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