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**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. I mean, that's like 99.9% of why I wanted to have you on the show, because I'm like, there's just so much detail behind this... When I look at the different tea leaves that are out there around the sentiment of Docker, and this 2.0, this evolved Docker, it seems -- there's some people who say... |
**Scott Johnston:** \[34:07\] Yeah. I appreciate the question, Adam. It is geared exactly towards this symbiotic, if you will - not to use a big word, but it's how is this coherent with the ecosystem. So maybe to put a point on it, we had 60 people when we did the reset, the pivot, and we're now back up over 300. And m... |
We talked about the Mac M1s before, the ARM technology... If we look at BuildKit, which is multi-platform, so the same Docker file can produce x86 ARM, even RISC-V and IBM 390 binaries... We've done a complete rebuild of Compose to make it much faster and much more responsive to developers... And I can go down the list... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Scott Johnston:** And in doing so, we think that it is both growing the developer community because there's more and more devs coming into this market... 27 million devs, going to 45 million by the end of this decade... And what we see is - and you've referenced it at the top of call, Adam... Docker can be pretty com... |
A specific recent example - in the last couple of releases we've launched something called Docker Init, which very deliberately patterns off of other XYZ inits out there in the developer world, where you point it at a directory... Say you're a Python developer, you point it at your directory, do Docker init in that dir... |
So that's an example of how the commercialization has allowed us to invest in developer-facing value that is first and foremost about growing that developer community, helping them onboard, helping simplify their experience... That is first and foremost how our business works, and then again, if they go and work for an... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. Can we talk about the recent -- I won't call it a blunder... I guess change of direction; the reversal of the free team plan. What happened there? What exactly -- was it communicated wrong? Was it a wrong decision? What was that? |
**Scott Johnston:** I think it was a decision that was well-intended, but wasn't fully informed. And that's on us. I'm not saying that someone else was responsible for informing us. And what I mean specifically though is that there is actually a fantastic product for open source projects on Docker, being distributed th... |
\[38:09\] And the intention was to guide those users, which is about less than 1.8% of the overall base, but it was, as we found out, a very vocal percent... Our intent was to guide those users to this better product. We didn't fully appreciate how difficult that was for them from a tooling standpoint, we didn't fully ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. Well, sometimes things like that happen. You lose the goodwill of folks, and as you can see, they're very vocal, those folks involved in that change. When you kind of mess with, in quotes, open source teams - well, that's ruffled some feathers there. |
**Scott Johnston:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** And then obviously, you kind of open up the consideration opportunity for alternatives, which - if you want to speak to, I suppose, Docker Hub, and then as it relates to, say, GitHub Container Registry, which we're users of... In that change, we didn't -- it wasn't an emotional switch, but we switch... |
**Scott Johnston:** Yeah, we clearly were aware of that potential... And again, the intention, whether -- they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's true, it is. |
**Scott Johnston:** Despite the intention being pure, we realized that was a risk. And of course, when we saw the community reaction, it hence led to the reversal. But I think what we've also tried to make clear is that we continue to invest extremely heavily in open source. It costs tens of millions of dollars to oper... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** For sure. And that's, again, 99.9% why I wanted to have you on the show, is because there's just so much humanity behind businesses; we often just look at the specs, and the line items in the free plan versus this plan, or that plan... We scrutinize those things and we forget about the humanity and ... |
\[41:56\] At the same time though, we also have competition. And I want to understand, I suppose, the state of Docker Hub. I know you've got a lot of -- you mentioned the open source program; I'd love to examine that to some degree, if we have time for it. We're probably 15-ish minutes out from the end of the show. So ... |
**Scott Johnston:** Sure, sure. And look, it's important that our Northstar be serving our users. And while it's always healthy - you referenced this earlier, it's healthy to respect and pay attention to the competition, because it does make you better. I've seen and been part of organizations that got that priority fl... |
I'm sure GitHub and other container registries have fantastic communities as well. I'll just say, ours is at a scale and at a - call it a critical mass that offers a lot of benefits to those who are launching new businesses, launching new projects there. |
The last thing I'll add is that if you're part of our curated community members, Docker-Sponsored Open Source, Docker-Verified Publishers, or Docker Official Images, is that the ease of use from the Docker CLI, because of our ownership of the library namespace on hub - you can type docker pull, you don't have to type l... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. I know that this year as part of your security and safety focus here in 2023 - how does that ticker into Docker Hub in terms of... I think there's terminology like verified images -- I'm not sure; you probably know this, of course, because you're CEO... But kind of gave me some of that safety ... |
**Scott Johnston:** Thank you. I'll say the curated or the trusted open source content is something that was popular there, and it's popular because developers have learned to trust it. And so the Docker Official Images is one of the three categories. None of the images through that program are less than 30 days old, m... |
\[46:00\] In fact, when Log4j hit, Log4Shell hit, 15 months or so ago now, 16 months or so ago now, literally within hours we were working with upstream to have those images, that content refreshed and available, vulnerability-free. And some organizations that are relying on other images for their base images, still a ... |
And all that happens on our site with publishers; developers don't have to do a thing, except just do the latest update, pull the pull latest image, and they get that security benefit of a clean, updated, patched image, 100% for free. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Scott Johnston:** And so maybe just put a point on it from a staff standpoint, these three programs - Docker Official Images, Docker Verified Publisher and then Docker-Sponsored Open Source, which we've talked about quite a bit already - they represent about 2,500-some different repos on Hub, out of 15 million. But b... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Wow. |
**Scott Johnston:** So a very small subset; a couple of percentage points represent the vast majority of consumption, because they are trusted, maintained, curated, clean. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** And that's important, too. Like, when you do docker pull, you want to pull an image that you know is safe, and secure, and has that vetting around it... That kind of thing. |
**Scott Johnston:** That's right. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's tremendous. And it takes a lot of work, I'm sure; as you mentioned, $10 million or more a year to run Hub, and -- |
**Scott Johnston:** Just Hub's infrastructure. And then we have a whole set of fantastic engineers, and product teams who are working with our publishers and working on automation to make sure that the images stay trusted, or that they stay clean, they stay pure. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It seems though last year, 2022, was the year of acquisitions for you all. Can you speak to some of the moves you made? ...even in this economic downturn, so to speak, as we're going in. Did you go into those acquisitions with exuberance, or trepidation, in retrospect to now? Is there any concern? S... |
**Scott Johnston:** Sure. Sure. It actually pulls from a theme that we've touched on earlier here, Adam, which is as we started to commercialize, we wanted to ship even more value, faster, to developers, and we have a fantastic internal R&D team, but we knew we could do more. And so last year, we acquired five companie... |
A couple of examples... The \[unintelligible 00:48:35.21\] team became the foundation of what is now Docker Scout. And so the system of record that's based on graph technology under the covers, that tracks every package, every Git commit, every CI result, every test - it builds a graph of that image lifecycle from end ... |
We acquired a two-person company called Nestybox, and they formed the basis of the additional VDI stack that we talked about earlier, the VDI compatibility of Docker Desktop, as well as something we launched in the October timeframe called Hardened Docker Desktop, which provides a layer of security that prevents rogue,... |
Third is we acquired a company called Infosiftr, which had some fantastic relationships with upstream and fantastic automation around the making the official images even safer, and even more resilient, I'll say, to attacks. |
A fourth company called Tilt - it had just fantastic developers, that had really good sensibility around making Kubernetes easier for developers, and lowering the barrier so you didn't have to become a PhD in Kubernetes YAML... And so we brought that on board; it was about five engineers on that team, and they are work... |
\[50:07\] And then the fifth one was a company called \[unintelligible 00:50:07.28\] that had some fantastic engineers who had built internal development platforms twice in previous employers, and were in the process of creating a company around IDPs. And we realized in the coming world of platforms that that skill set... |
So there's just some examples, Adam. They were all, hopefully you're hearing, kind of forward-looking examples to serve the developer experience, and able to deliver value to developers faster than we could on our own, organically, with our own R&D team. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Fantastic. This is music to my ears, Scott, because it just makes it more concrete what you said before, which was we grew - I'm paraphrasing, because this is how I heard you at least... "We grew so we can reinvest into the developer experience of Docker at large", whether it's Hub, whether it's Doc... |
**Scott Johnston:** So it's Docker Official Images, Docker Verified Publisher Images, and Docker-Sponsored Open Source; those are the three trusted content programs. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's it, Docker-Sponsored Open Source, that I was talking about. Yeah, I mean, that's part of exactly what I want to talk to you, because I feel like people expect Docker for free, at all layers, all the time. And you've kind of been negatively impacted, from a brand standpoint, because you've mad... |
**Scott Johnston:** Bias for considered action. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Bias for considered action, exactly. I'm gonna borrow that, if you don't mind. I like that. |
**Scott Johnston:** No, please. Please. Well, I also want to acknowledge - I'll say empathy, for a community that was used to something for free for so long... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** For sure. |
**Scott Johnston:** ...and with the pivot of the company, that required us to stand back and look at everything, kind of all up in a fresh lens. And I can imagine a very different scenario, versus had we started back in 2013-2014 with this focus on developers and this focus on the model. Then that would have just -- th... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** No. There's the book "Who Moved My Cheese" for a reason, Scott. I encourage everyone to read it again, and again, and again. I read it every couple of years, if not yearly, just because there's so much change. It's just a reminder to be resilient when possible, for sure. |
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